With the current economic climate and the demonstrations between the two opposing Thai political factions at loggerheads, not to mention the international media sensationalism that is portraying Bangkok as a city akin to Chicago in 1968 or East Timor a few years ago, I am getting an increasing volume of inquiries about bringing Thai girls to the US.
I think this phenomenon can be directly attributed to the economy and political situation in the US and Thailand. I think many men that have a long distance Thai girlfriend are trying to cut back on the money they send to Thailand. In an effort to do this they are looking at biting the bullet and bringing their Thai girlfriend to the US rather than sending money and not getting to be with them. Others are worried that their Thai loved one may be in jeopardy due to the problems in the Thai political system. Whatever their reason, more people are asking about bringing a Thai Girl to the USA. Hopefully this post will shed some light on the subject.
The Traditional Methods for Bringing a Thai Girlfriend to the USA: Tourist Visa, K1 Visa, and Spouse Visa.
The Tourist Visa
Although it is possible to bring a Thai to the USA on a tourist visa I don’t usually recommend it for a few reasons: 95% rejection rate, a rejection can hurt future chances of visa approval, and possible criminal penalties if the visa is used improperly. Although some would argue with the 95% statistic I would say it’s not far off of the mark The US Embassy in Thailand has a deluge of applications for tourist visas and most of them get rejected. The reason for this is the fact that there is a presumption that anyone entering the US on a tourist visa is doing so with an intention to remain. The presumption must be overcome with compelling evidence to the contrary, most of the time the Thai cannot produce this evidence so the application is denied.
Which leads to the next point, when an application is denied the denial is put into the system and if a Thai girl comes back to apply for another visa (regardless of category) this denial will be noted. I am not of the opinion that simply being turned down previously will cause a denial on a new application. However, I do think that the immigration officials scrutinize a file more carefully if it is associated with someone who has been denied in the past. This heightened scrutiny could cause the official to find a mistake that may have been overlooked and therefore a denial that may not have occurred otherwise.
Finally if one enters the United States on a tourist visa and subsequently gets married and tries to remain this could be construed as an attempt to defraud the US government. I wrote more about this issue in The Tourist Visa Trap.
The K1 Visa: Preferred Method for Bringing a Thai Girlfriend to the USA
The K1 Visa is one of the few legislative inventions that seemed to have both a purpose and its actual implementation has been in sync with that purpose. The real drawback for most people with this visa is the fact that it takes about 6 months to obtain. The tourist visa takes less than a month, but the likelihood of actually getting it is much lower. Recent legislative changes have caused the introduction of a cap on the visa. Now, a US Citizen may only apply for two without a waiver and only one every 24 months.
If both parties meet the requirements then the only thing to worry about is correctly filing the application and knowing how to put together the evidence and deal with the Embassy, many opt to obtain a lawyer (insert shameless plug here), but be advised to make sure the person you are dealing with is a licensed attorney and not a “visa agent,” as using visa agents can sometimes be a risky proposition.
Once in the US, the Visa is valid for 90 days, during which time the Thai and American should get married and apply for the Thai to obtain permanent residence. To learn more check out: Visas for a Thai Girlfriend or Fiancée.
Thai Spouse Visas for Thai Wives
here are two visas that are essentially the same only one allows for an expedited process. The Immediate Relative Visa allows a Thai wife to enter the US as a permanent resident so that the permanent resident or green-card process is taken care of beforehand. The K-3 is basically the same thing only it’s an expedited an expedited version and strictly speaking not an immigrant visa so the spouse will have to worry about obtaining permanent residence once stateside. To learn more check out: Visas for a Thai Wife.
Thanks for reading,
TSL
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Don’t bring your gal to the States.
The local Thais will coach her and turn her into a rotten person.
Believe me, I know what I’m talking about.
95% are scamming you anyway.
Don’t believe? Hack into her email account.
Thais have no shame when it comes to money…anything goes.
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
A girlfriend with a masters degree (albeit from a Thai university) from Bangkok and with a salary of over 80,000 Baht per month (working for a multinational) would probably have no problems getting a tourist visa, right?
View all comments by generous sponsor
What do you charge for a K1 visa?
View all comments by ron
Generous Sponsor,
I think the type of person you just described would be a good candidate for the tourist visa, but I’ve seen people with stunning credentials receive a denial. It is a truly subjective process. Often my job simply entails presenting the Thai applicant in the most favorable light possible, which is sometimes easier said than done.
Ron,
It honestly depends upon the service level that someone wants. Some people just want an attorney to fill out the forms, while others just want me to assist the Thai with the US Embassy here in Bangkok. On my website I have two packages that combine both of these services (http://www.integrity-legal.com/purchase.php), but the Premium Package I personally take them to the Embassy and if we get a 221 (g) request for more information (a common occurrence with the K1 Visa no matter how well prepared, most typical is name change certificates half the time a Thai’s parents changed their name when they were infants and they never knew about it), I handle it personally rather than delegating it to a member of the Thai staff.
View all comments by The Soi Lawyer
What about adoption? Most of us are probably comparatively old enough with our young n tenders. But then there would be the neighbours back home complaining about incest. But gthen if you took up residence beside a Catholic church, then your neighbours would be right there with you.
Problem solved.
Wrecks
View all comments by wrecks
And the gravatar thing works. Thanks for the advice.
View all comments by wrecks
What did these poor girls ever do to deserve that, be “brought” to fortress America?
View all comments by jack dawson
I got my wife to the US, and she received a green card on arrival. I did all the paperwork myself, but it took a huge amount of careful preparation and more legwork than I expected. I was living in Thailand and we’d been married 3 years, which helped, I think. In retrospect, it would have been just about worth a legal fee, just for the paperwork. For anyone who is stuck in the US, or otherwise unable to hold your lady’s hand through the embassy ordeal, get a good lawyer to go with her. The procedure is too complicated and arbitrary for even an educated TG to deal with.
View all comments by MrLucky
Incidentally, she is doing very well in the States, and we have a small group on Isaan friends who are all, without exception, sweet and shining examples of the best aspects of the Thai people.
View all comments by MrLucky
“of” not “on”. (damn tiny iPhone keypad)
View all comments by MrLucky
adoption? hahaa…
anyone else sick of reading things that start with the words “the current economic climate”?
View all comments by bongo
Thais have no shame?!
That’s funny.
View all comments by Werewolf
So if I had a girl that I wanted to take the the States, and I have a company here (all t’s crossed and j’s dotted, taxes paid, etc., but this is Thailand), and I employed her and took her to the States on a business trip, would that be so hard? I just want a vacation, I don’t want to live there! I want to live here!!
(but it would be nice to take her back to meet the folks before I got married…) I wonder how many months employment and letters of guarantee from my company I would need…though of course the risk is on my company I am sure! Just curious.
View all comments by Powers106
tsl - been through the process (for aust) and got to agree 100% on what you say re the tourist visa. in our experience things tightened up hugely since 9-11. i am sure even more so for the states.
and i laugh when you mention the name change thing. it happened to us. i reckon many thai parents tweak the spelling of their kids name when they find out a few years later there is a more “lucky” way of spelling it. just stick in a silent letter or maybe change a consonant and they’re sure to have a better future!
View all comments by Mr Carpet
I have a question for the future. My wife has permanent residence in the US, but in 6-8 years we plan to retire to Thailand, at which time I believe she’ll be required to give up her permanent residence as we won’t maintain a home in the US. When we want to travel back to the US to visit friends/family, will it be any easier for her to get a tourist visa having legally gone through the procedures to acquire permanent residence in the past?
BTW MrLucky, our experience is much like yours. Many great Thai friends here and none of the drama KT describes.
View all comments by tko
SL - Please clarify what you mean by “LICENSED ATTORNEY” in your statement below
“make sure the person you are dealing with is a LICENSED ATTORNEY and not a “visa agent,”
Does this mean;
a) must have a law degree
b) must be a member of the Thai Law Bar Association
c) have a “license” to practice law or business beyond A and/or B above (if there is such a thing)
d) have a special “immigration law” license (if there is such a thing)
View all comments by 8 Ball
TKO, Mr. Lucky, and Kilgore Trout,
I think this part of The Dummies Guide to Giving Thai Girls Money, Part 1, applies here.
I have thought many times of trying to bring girls back to The World and having them hang out with me for a couple of months, but after looking into it, there didn’t seem any way to do it except apply for a fiance visa, not get married, and have the girl return to Thailand after 90 days.
I am not sure how I would explain wanting to bring two “fiances” back simultaneously though.
BigBabyKenny
——————————————
“Normal newbie guys read the internet horror stories posted by sad sack expats and become gun shy about giving Thai girls money. Relying solely on the internet for information misleads newbies and they end up with a slanted false world view. The internet provides an overly negative view because only the guys who got burned are the ones who post.
Most of these posters are Hometown Heroes. These are farangs who back in The World have had little experience, little exposure, and have never been the target of really good looking, sexy knowledgeable women who know how to use and wield their Girl Power. In The World, they just weren’t worth the time and effort and never received much attention from these women and when they get to Thailand and unknowingly moved up on the local desirability index they find themselves overmatched, overwhelmed, and in over their heads.
When Hometown Heroes get to Thailand one of two thing commonly happen. Either they are successfully targeted and bilked by professional scam artists or they get involved with Thai girls fully aware of and skillful in wielding their substantial Girl Power, negotiate poorly, and end up getting out bargained, pussy whipped, and financially cornered. Either way they end up bitter or with egg on their face after being cheated out of their money or getting into a relationship under unfavorable terms and with little recourse, turn to the internet looking for sympathy or validation—and frequently find it from other Hometown Heroes doing the same.
If your only data on the question of giving Thai girls money was the internet leavings of Hometown Heroes you could only conclude that all Thai girls are professional scam artists and only an idiot would give them money.
What is missing from the internet are the majority of guys who get involved with Thai women, give them money on their terms, don’t get bilked, don’t get out negotiated, enjoy it, benefit from it, and at the end of the story, when the costs and benefits are tabulated are perfectly happy with the experience and would do it again.”
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
A few % of the Thais I meet are honest. It’s not a valued commodity in their world.
If you trust them, you’ll be made a fool.
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
Kilgore Trout,
Were the girls in your past on THE LUXURY VACATION PACKAGE or THE PERFORMANCE PACKAGE?
Try THE PERFORMANCE PACKAGE next time.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
Powers,
It sounds to me like she would have a good chance of getting the tourist visa because YOU are tied to Thailand through your company etc. which will be something they will look at, possibly more than her situation.
TKO,
When your wife loses PR she will have to sign up for a Tourist visa the same as if she never had it. However, look into getting her US Citizenship, if you plan on being in the States for 6-8 years its very possible to obtain a passport for her and then no worries about getting in and out.
8 Ball,
For US Immigration I suggest dealing with a Licensed US Attorney. The means they should have a license to practice law before some US State Bar. As far as Thai issues always use a Thai attorney, although international firms will often have Western lawyers to act as a liaison. A lot of people running around Thailand calling themselves lawyers and they have no degree or license.
View all comments by The Soi Lawyer
That’s such silliness about Thais not being honest - the average Thai is about as honest as anyone else. Honesty is valued here - if it weren’t, business wouldn’t be able to proceed at all - and I have met with a generally high level of honesty amongst Thais. I’ve even had Thais run after me to return money that has fallen out of my pocket!
It seems to me too many farang approach trying to understand Thailand in a very unsophisticated way and fail to properly analyze and reflect on their experiences here.
Lazily generalizing based on a tiny, statistically insignificant sample, not realizing that your sample is not at all representative of normal Thai society but is composed of the scammers and low-lifes who are no more the “normal” Thais than most farang here are “normal” farang, etc, etc. Just too much defensive, self-righteous intellectual laziness.
Thailand has many grievous faults and oceans of legitimate criticism can be directed at it, but the kind of laziness that so often finds expression is just sad, IMO.
View all comments by Pierre
Hey, SL, can guys really get fiancee visas for their girlfriends if the girl worked in a bar?
What if it was a gogo bar?
What if she only worked there for three weeks?
What if she was just a coyote girl?
Or a service girl?
Or a cashier?
Or a waitress at a bar that served food?
Isn’t there an interview where they ask the fiance and fiancee how they met? Are you screwed if either one of you says “bar,” or are you basically OK as long as she says she never turned any tricks? Or should she just lie and say she worked at the market in her village from age 18-23?
See, this is the kind of stuff the readers of this blog want to know. I think.
View all comments by gavinmac
“That’s such silliness about Thais not being honest - the average Thai is about as honest as anyone else.”
I used to feel the same until I moved here and ran a business.
Thais have a well deserved reputation thru-out asia as the scammers.
I do have some Thai friends I trust but not many.
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
@Kilgore Trout - did it ever occur to you that you are not meeting a representative sample of Thai people?
There are dishonest business people in every country - you cannot generalize on the basis of some bad experiences. It’s bad logic, it’s myopic, it’s partial vision, it’s partial blindness.
It’s an admission of your own impotence and inability to solve the difficult problem of how to succeed in an unfamiliar environment. You see, every society has its “sectors” of people who are scammers and exploiters. In our own society we can spot these people a mile away. Put us somewhere else, and we have no idea who is who. The scammers rely on precisely this. The lazy man simply says “they are all cheaters” because it is too hard to figure out the real lay of the land, which parts of society is honest, which aren’t, and how to recognize them.
View all comments by Pierre
Thanks for the advice.
I meet all kinds. I don’t go to the bars.
I’m a legit business person interacting with real locals.
Dishonesty and deceit are cultural norms.
I’ve been around and Thais take the cake when it comes to shameless behavior.
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
Tourist visa - 95% probability of rejection means very little in reality. If the Thai is a bargirl with no income, it’s 100% rejection. If she’s with a steady, well-paying job (not necessarily amazingly paid, say 30k/mo), some assets and is a genuine tourist (e.g. going on a 3-week holiday), it may well be 80% acceptance. It’s so not hard to tell before applying which category the Thai fits in.
Fiancee visa (K1) - almost guaranteed. Takes 6+ months, lots of mindless bureaucracy (lawyers love it). Another downside is that you only get 90 days which is not much time to for her to acclimate to the new environment and you to evaluate if marriage is prudent.
Note that in a twist of USCIS madness, getting a visa for your actual spouse (K3), even if you’ve been married for 10+ years, takes much longer than the K1 visa for a bar tottie, often a year or more. Of course, they won’t issue your wife a tourist visa either.
Student visa (F1) - this may well be an easiest one if the Thai is of proper age (22-28), a recent college grad and it’s plausible that they’d want to study English for a year in the U.S. Find an accredited program, geGet accepted into any accredited program, get an I-20 form filed, and that’s it… as fast as a tourist visa.
Also, the danger of criminal liability for fraud if you do decide to get married on a wrong visa are theoretical and minimal. The government would have to prove that you intended to get married from the outset, before you obtained the visa. It’s perfectly legal to go to U.S. on any visa, then once there decide to get married to a citizen and apply for adjustment of status. Of course, being a bit tactful about this is prudent (not marrying right away, and not giving out hints of your intentions to marry during the visa application process).
View all comments by crocodilexp
We got my wife’s Immigrant Visa (IR-1) in less than 6 months (including time for the Thai Postal “Service” to lose our paperwork two or three times).
View all comments by MrLucky
Gavinmac,
Awesome question and one that is worth noting. This is a real problem for those seeking to bring a Thai girl to the USA. If there is a presumption of prostitution then that will be a bar to a fiance’s admission to the US. Now a good question is: how do you delineate this? I have met girls working in bars in Bkk that are not engaged in the red-light trade.
Working in a bar (in any capacity) will very likely be presumed to be the practice of prostitution. Some people just don’t mention this fact on their application, but understand that it is NEVER advisable to lie to the US government or any of its agents.
There is a way through this: if a Thai girl is presumed to be a prostitute and her application is denied, then she can seek a waiver of the ground of inadmissibility and enter that way. Granting the waiver is subjective on the part of the officer reviewing the case, so it is not a slam dunk but it is possible and I would venture to say, not unlikely.
View all comments by The Soi Lawyer
As far as Thai’s being trust worthy, use the same intuitive reasoning that you use in your own country. Trust the people you know, build up networks of people who you believe are trustworthy. Rely no friends and word of mouth and above all use common sense. If the deal seems to good to be true usually it is. Be a hard arse but reward good work and it will get you far. If a bar girl blows you away with enthusiasm and attitude give her a tip and i’ll bet she will be the one ringing you not the other way round. The same applies in business.
View all comments by Tails
anyone else sick of reading things that start with the words “the current economic climate”?
Actually despite losing heaps of cash I’d rather hear about the current economic climate than the Global warming come Climate change bullshit that proceeded it. Funny how that’s slipped off the radar.
I for one am looking forward to Bangkok reclaiming it’s Venice of the East tag.
View all comments by Wenthworth
BBK: excellent analysis. Almost all the Thai-Farang married couples I know here are happy, which is boring, so there aren’t a bunch of stories about them on the net.
View all comments by tko
SL: Thanks for your response. She’s actually been eligible to apply for US citizenship for quite a while, but doesn’t want to have to jump through the USCIS’ hoops again. I guess I’ll have to try to convince her it’s worth it.
View all comments by tko
Kilgore Trout: I don’t know you, but I have to say that your repeated comment that Thais are “shameless” taken in conjunction with your advice to ‘hack into her email account’ is … I don’t know… offensive… hilarious… a little of both?
Perhaps you’ve been around the traps here in Thailand for thirty years — I dunno. For me it’s been about 4 years. I have worked very closely with Thais for about half that time and in general I’d have to say that they were among the most enjoyable working relationships of my life.
For the other half of the time I’ve spent much less time with the individual Thai people in my workplace, but I tend to meet and work with dozens every month. Most of them are in mid-level management positions. They strike me as intently honest, generally very caring about the work. Frequently they are not the hardest working people I have ever met, but the more years I spend on this earth the less value I put on ‘work ethic’.
I’m not trying to pick a fight, but statements like “95% are scamming you anyway.” bother me based on my very positive experiences with the Thai people I have have worked with. Your statement just isn’t congruent with my experience, and I’m not generally known as a wide-eyed optimist when it comes to evaluating other people.
View all comments by Werewolf
Just because they are nice, doesn’t mean they like you.
Took me a long time to figure that out.
Hacking into her email would be an eye opener, believe me.
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
Ah, here ya go.
Land of Smiles.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21533131@N06/
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
I’ve done this both ways. First girl was from Bangkok she got a tourist Visa, she did it all on her own, I paid nothing, she had a decent job but nothing that spectactular, Spoke good english and She “told” the embassy she was going to look at a potential satelite office for her boss in the US. I then made here appointments to meet Property managers and asked them to send a letter head confirming it, they did and that was fine at the embassy and took about 45 days. 2nd time a girl from Kohn Kaen, She didnt work or speak english so i gotta visa lawyer for that and it took 7 months.
View all comments by Rolln
KT: I wrote 4 paragraphs and never once used the word “nice”. Ok, enough from me on this topic. How ’bout that Starbucks chain trying to pay people to vote, huh?…
View all comments by Werewolf
KilgoreT– I was sitting at Trimurti Shrine (same general area as Erawan as I’m sure you know) around lunch time a week or so after Songkran this year and I was approached by a well-dressed Thai claiming to be an attorney. After responding to him in Thai, and him noticing my King bracelet he seemed to shift his conversation. Just curious what he was really up to. Perhaps I should try again and just see where it leads. BTW my general opinion of Thais is the same as yours, but perhaps not so extreme. There’s a lot behind the smile, but the people depicted in your photos (great idea BTW) are a minority. I would like to know why the police continue to let them operate. If the defense is “well the cops are corrupt!”..then that pretty much backs up your point of view.
dboy
View all comments by Dboy
@Ktrout - some Thais are good, some are bad. You haven’t figured out yet how to distinguish out who is who, so you take the safe way and say they are all (or most) bad. That’s lazy, and easy, and it does in fact protect you from getting tricked by the bad ones, so I understand why you do it. It also prevents you from ever having good experiences with the good ones, so you’re also hurting yourself. It is not uncommon for people to hurt themselves when all they are doing is trying to protect themselves. I understand your need to defend yourself, and was just trying to suggest a more intelligent way to go about it. Maybe you’re not at that stage yet. That’s kewl, too.
Oh, and Thailand is a poor country, so more people will be involved in scamming people, that’s true, and they certainly target foreigners, naturally. Still, once you learn how to recognize this class of Thais, the normal Thais are a pretty normal bunch in terms of honesty.
But again, it’s up to you how you operate here, so no biggie.
View all comments by Pierre
There are plenty of good Thais out there.
The trouble is, the ones that would eat your young are just as friendly as the ones that like you.
The velvet sledgehammer approach.
More pics here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29324583@N05/
Silom area Tourist Mafia.
Notice they are all working in view of Police Boxes, TAT Info Booths and Security Guards.
I think many pictured are english speaking cops.
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
kt - are u angry or been screwed or something? seems like you re on some hate thailand campaign here. getting kind of old really…
View all comments by sideshowBOB
@ktrout - in your last post you seem to realize the real problem is telling the good Thais from the bad Thais, not that most Thais are bad. That’s a good start!
View all comments by Pierre
Kilgore Trout and Pierre,
I agree with you Pierre that the key is being able to read people but you have to realize that some people do not have the intelligence or human empathy to be able to read people in The World and they are not going to magically develop this ability in Thailand.
The rational approach for these people is to assume everyone in Thailand is crooked and a liar. It would be better if they learned to distinguish between good and bad but given their personalities, genes, background and personal histories that may not be an option. Assuming everyone is crooked and a liar is their best and only option.
The problem with this approach is you are programming yourself for a shitty Thailand experience. You are precluding the opportunity for good experiences, meeting good people, and having any kind of good time in Thailand by refusing to associate or have anything to do with anything Thai.
You are also programming yourself to becoming one of the legion of bitter angry self proclaimed Master’s of the Universe who never leave The Reservation and spend their lives sitting around with the other bitter angry expats congratulating each other that they “have lived in Thailand a long time”, have ” tons of experience”, and “know how things work” but are really full of shit.
Better to gamble a little, get off The Reservation, take some chances making some friends with normal Thais and see what kind of adventure develops. Maybe you get burned and maybe you don’t but at least you give yourself a chance to experience and enjoy Amazing Thailand.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
Oh come on, you really are becoming tiresome. Don’t make me do it again.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
BBB
Time to look up “hubris” in the dictionary.
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
@KT: That remark might be better directed at BBK, or was it a typo?
View all comments by Combover
@Kenny - generally, I agree with what you say above. There are undoubtedly many people who simply lack the social skills - either back home or in Thailand - to be very successful in dealing with a complex social reality. Such people are in a real quandary and may really have no choice but to just shut everyone in their new country out, which kind of defeats the purpose of coming.
But I do think lots of socially capable people in their own country just don’t know how to approach this place and could use help developing an approach. I know I sure could have when I came! Lots of people here are needlessly bitter! And the “cultural guides” to Thailand are often worse than useless - they are dangerous.
For instance these guides will tell you Thais value “modesty” - well, yes and no. Thais find bragging and self-promotion distasteful but love wearing expensive clothing and driving nice cars and spending lavishly (those who can). Clearly “modesty” is an “official” virtue that applies only in some areas of life. We need a cultural “map” and the only way we can get one is by realizing we must approach this place “analytically” :))
When I say we need a cultural “map” I mean we need a detailed explanation of where, how, and when “modesty” (or any supposedly Thai value) is applied. Simply noting that Thais value modesty is seriously misleading and can get you into serious trouble if you take that seriously and are modest in the wrong ways at the wrong time. This is why so much Western commentary on Thailand is sophomoric and useless. There are countless examples.
It’s the same with the Thais being “dishonest” nonesense - a person who seriously believes that either hasn’t realized he need to develop a cultural “map” of Thailand, is incapable of doing it, or has reneged on his responsibility.
View all comments by Pierre
BBK. Sorry, BBB…
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
Pierre,
I find your comment about modesty and its official/unofficial social enforcement intriguing as I have found this is often the case in the legal realm. Prostitution is illegal but pervasive, seemingly a result of lack of enforcement by police. It is even more interesting when one looks at how the judicial system views the law. Judges are very exacting and rigid in their enforcement of statute (as they should be), but what is so odd is comparing this attitude to the street level where legal precepts are often disregarded or overlooked.
I think people should understand that Thais are very comfortable with something we in the West might call “hypocrisy.” I’m not saying that Thais are hypocrites, but that they are very comfortable with dichotomy in a way that westerners (or most westerners) are not.
I continuously am reminded of a section in the book “Confessions of a Bangkok Private Eye,” in which the writer notes that the same girls who could steal every dime a man has and leave him broke only to go back to a boyfriend they had on the side all along could also go out of their way to buy his daughter candy or fruit at the drop of a hat. The latter actions would not seem the actions of self-absorbed greedy conwomen, but one cannot forget their raison d’etre, namely getting as much money as they can.
Often when I deal with Thais I take the attitude that I’m dealing with two or more people. The gracious kind person and his or her cunning counterpart constantly on the lookout for an angle. The best results seem to come when one can combine these two attributes into one and focus the unified energy upon a single objective.
When I read about Jim Thompson the first thing that came to my mind was the fact that Thompson didn’t just hire Thais and expect them to work. Instead, he would pay the Thai by the work they had done. So if one family produced 1 bolt of silk and another produced 2 the second family was paid double and there was little the first family could do other than boost production. In my mind if a Thai (or anyone) has interests that coincide with another, then that Thai will stay loyal. How this plays into marital relations is anyone’s guess, but I’m no expert on this as I’ve never been married.
View all comments by The Soi Lawyer
@SoiLawyer - That’s really interesting that judges in Thailand are really exacting and strict with the law - I never would have expected that and everything everyone says about Thais would lead you to expect the exact opposite! That’s a perfect illustration of the point I was trying to make. There are levels or layers where “principles” apply and layers where they don’t, and simply noting the “principle” on its own gets you nowhere. Without a “map”, you’re nowhere.
In a way, yes, it IS hypocrisy, you’re right there, but I prefer to see it as part of the human condition stemming from the fact that we make ideals that we can’t always live up to. It’s still nice to have the ideals, but some of them are just unrealistic or too hard to consistently live up to. ALL societies set up “official” ideals - and then promptly go about negotiating compromises with them! It’s an interesting phenomenon. Consider Christian Europe in the Middle Ages - if you wrote a manual on European culture based solely on the “official” creed (Christian compassion, etc) and then tried to live in that society, you would not survive very long!
“Modesty” is nice, but it’s unrealistic to expect human beings to consistently refrain from indulging their self-love, so the culture creates certain areas or “shelters” where self-love can be freely expressed even as it still upholds modesty in other areas. In fact, being modest in certain areas in Thai life will earn you contempt!
As for whether Thais have more of this kind of “hypocrisy” in their culture than the West, that is an interesting question. I think you’re probably right regarding the West TODAY, because the West for the past few hundred years has been engaged in the process of refining and purifying it’s culture through reason (the Enlightenment), although the West still has many areas of life in which ideals are preached and the opposite practice tolerated.
You say that Thais are charming without forgetting to look after their self-interest. I think moderate selfishness is a healthy thing, but I suppose Thais sometimes come off as being too rapacious. I can see that. But I think we might be doing them an injustice - we often forget how savage a place Thailand can be for a poorer Thai. There are no safety nets. They really HAVE to look after themselves more energetically here.
I think if you read 19th century French or English novels you see that people facing situations broadly similar to what Thais do today behaved in appalling ways. As Thailand evolves many of these behaviors will fade away - they are just survival strategies to deal with a harsh reality. I don’t think they say anything about the “essential” nature of Thai people or culture, as many seem to believe. But in the meantime we do have to protect ourselves!
View all comments by Pierre
Hi Soi Lawyer:
The Thai ladies are nervous when they go to the US Embassy and need someone to hold their hand. Since you have never been married and are new to Thailand, I would be concerned that you might not know how to take care of Thai lady and how to deal wiht the officials at the US Embassy. A degree is just a piece of paper and how many lawyers can you really trust anyway? Perhaps when you have more experience in Thailand you will understand that at the US Embassy it is not what you know (or where you graduated) it is who you know and there are certain tricks to the trade. Since you are just starting out and looking for clients I understand that you have time on your hands. I hired the oldest and most established firmin Thailand for my lady’s visa and the lawyer there gave me a full guarantee. Everything worked out great and I know I made the right choice.
God Bless
Dan
View all comments by Seabreeze
“the lawyer there gave me a full guarantee”
No reputable lawyer (yes i know an oxymoron) would “guarantee” services, especially in a place like Thailand and when dealing with the US Embassy. Count yourself lucky, Dan - perhaps hiring the oldest and most established firm helped.
View all comments by generous sponsor