*Note many of the facts are changed in this story to protect all involved.
About a month ago I get a call from a man who tells me he is in the Immigration Detention Center at Suan Phlu. Apparently, the he had come into Thailand on a two month tourist visa and was trying to extend the visa intra-country. The man had been convicted of a crime in Thailand some years ago had served his sentence and was deported. He was told by someone that he could come back to the country after 5 years. He waited and had returned. He was granted the Tourist Visa from the Thai Embassy in his home country and was duly stamped into Thailand upon arrival here.
At this point it should be noted that this man was African. Having only an African Passport can be a real disadvantage because there is often no visa-waiver and one with an African passport must usually obtain a visa to travel virtually anywhere. For our purposes, let’s say he was from the country of Rhodesia. Now Rhodesian passports are not machine readable, but are actually written by hand and must be examined by a human being. It is my suspicion that this is why he was able to get into Thailand without being turned away at the border. Basically, the Thai Immigration officer didn’t give the passport enough scrutiny and double check it in the computer.
The interesting thing about immigration law is the fact that the two arms of the process often don’t communicate with each other. This is very much the case in Thailand. The Immigration service here is a division of the police and the Royal Thai Embassies and Consulates overseas answer to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. This is the same to a certain extent in the US in that the Consulates and Embassies are governed by the State Department and Immigration is under the Attorney General (since 9/11 the Department of Homeland Security was created to streamline communication between these two bureaucracies, seems counter intuitive to fix a bureaucracy with more bureaucracy, but hey what do I know). The result of this bifurcation is that someone who Immigration doesn’t want in the country can obtain a visa because Immigration doesn’t issue visas and the Embassy doesn’t look at Immigration’s database to see if someone shouldn’t be allowed in. Confused yet? Believe me I was to when trying to figure out how this all happened.
So my client got into Thailand because of a crack in the system. When he tried to extend his visa in Thailand he was then dealing with Immigration and they immediately detained him because he wasn’t supposed to be in the country in the first place. I think that had he done a “visa run” left the country and returned I would not be writing this article because he would have gotten back in, or at worst would have been turned away at the border and he would not have had to deal with Immigration jail.
He was held in Immigration detention which I can tell you is not a place you would want to be. It is not quite Bang Kwang, but it is close. Anyway the only way to deport someone is to fly them straight home to their home country, in this case Rhodesia. Let me tell you, there are not many direct flights between Bangkok and Rhodesia. He could make use of connecting flights, but his layover can be no longer than 2 hours, apparently an international regulation.
This posed a major problem because he could be sitting in Immigration lockup for days waiting for a flight. At the same time, he can’t just take any seat he has to take one of the seats that the Immigration Department specifically reserves with the airlines for deportations. Otherwise the airline has to stand as guarantor to make sure the deportee gets to their home country, something the airlines don’t like to do.
*This issue came up in the situation regarding Gary Glitter. When he was deported from Vietnam he was able to go where he wanted because essentially he could charter his own plane and indemnify the airline against liability for not going straight back to the UK (one more instance of money talks everyone else walks).
My job was to expedite this deportation. I came in and begged, pleaded, and cajoled the Immigration officials to get him on a flight. Otherwise, had I not been there Immigration would have simply “gotten around to it,” meaning he might still be sitting there. I met a Frenchman who had been in there for 3 days just because there wasn’t a seat back to Paris. In Immigration’s defense they actually are very reasonable people, but they have millions of things to do and without proper representation a person could be forgotten in the melee.
Ultimately, one could say that divine intervention got him out. I know a Catholic Priest who works for the Jesuit Refugee Service (a wonderful organization that does a great deal to help indigent and stateless people) and he had a contact at the airlines and was able to make the flight arrangements. All worked out fairly well, my client got out after only spending one night in the Detention Center (instead of a likely 2 weeks) and I made some new connections at Immigration.
A few notes for those with Thai immigration issues:
- Suan Phlu is the Immigration Department’s headquarters, it is very “by the book,” so tread carefully and don’t try anything funny. FYI: Bangkok government offices tend to be more “by the book” than some of the provinces so act accordingly.
- DON’T OVERSTAY!!! I know there are a million farangs sitting on barstools saying how overstaying is no biggie and how they’ve been in Thailand on overstay since 1978 or whatever. I think that eventually the chickens come home to roost. If you are overstaying you will be caught at some point and then you’ll be in Immigration Lockup waiting to be deported, not a pleasant thought.
- Most people don’t like to hear this, but do a “visa run,” particularly if you are in Thailand on a Tourist Visa. Yes, you have to leave the country and I know it’s a pain, but in my view the process is much smoother and one is less scrutinized at the borders than at the Immigration offices inside Thailand. This is not to be construed as encouraging people to circumvent or violate any laws, but simply stating that the Immigration process at the borders is more streamlined and less hassle. Also, let us say you’ve done something that would cause you to be deported, if you are at the border they will simply refuse to allow you in or immediately throw you out. This is far better than being deported from inside Thailand because at least you won’t have to spend time in jail waiting for your flight out. For people on Non-Immigrant “B” Visa extensions this does not apply. As well as retirement visas, because for both visas the extension process is more routine and Immigration is not heavily scrutinizing why you wish to stay longer.
- Hire an Attorney if you do get detained at Immigration Lockup. This is not a shameless plug. A Lawyer on the scene can make a difference in how long you will be there and how you are treated. I do take credit cards so call me and we will set something up. Okay, so maybe it is a shameless plug, but its still good advice.
Thanks for Reading Everyone I really appreciate all of the positive feedback!
Best,
Benjamin Hart
“The Soi Lawyer”
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“Anyway the only way to deport someone is to fly them straight home to their home country, in this case Rhodesia. Let me tell you, there are not many direct flights between Bangkok and Rhodesia.”
Rhodesia???? It’s been Zimbabwe since 1979!
View all comments by Brewsterbudgen
rhodesia sounds better. Zimbabwe sounds like the name of some fucked up country with a crackhead dictator.. oh, wait. nevermind
View all comments by UnCochinoWetback
Don’t most people usually hire lawyers when they get arrested or detained?
View all comments by MSB
Surprisingly, many people don’t hire an attorney in situations such as this. All locations have been changed for anonymity
View all comments by The Soi Lawyer
I’m no Clarence Darrow, but one more note:
Try not “to be covicted of a crime” and deported from the country you wanna’ stay in.
I could be wrong but that could come back to bite you in the tush.
View all comments by jack dawson
I would guess the lad was from Nigeria, Ghana, Cote D’ivore or one of the other neighboring countries along the Ivory Coast. Probably he had a prior offence in Thailand relating to something they might only give him a light slap and a red stamp in his passport for here like credit card fraud, pulling a Wash-Wash Scam (Black Dollar Scam), or some sort of non-drug related contraband trafficking (otherwise he still might be in jail now). In any event, he was a known criminal and thus, treated as such.
Thailand doesn’t need any more scum bags like this guy coming in though. They already have enough of them harboring out around Sukhumvit Soi 3 and Soi 5 running 419 internet scams from the internet cafes within Soi 3/1 and they are constantly trying to chat up white tourists on the streets in the area in order to lure them into some sort of scam which could also become dangerous and/or violent for the tourist if things get nasty.
For a short period of time a few years ago the Thai authorities got smart and stopped issuing visas to people from some of the ivory coast countries, but unfortunately that did not do much because most now travel on fake passports from Kenya or South Africa anyway. That is just an aside about the Africans generally coming into this country who are generally the bottom of the barrel and 90% of which deserve to be in jail anyway.
And to validate my point about the type of Africans who are staying in Thailand, about 70% of the men in the immigration jail in Suan Phlu are from Nigeria.
As for the immigration side of this posting, yes, the message that you would be foolish to violate your visa and overstay without a visa for an extended period of time in Thailand is a valid warning.
But that applies to any country in the world and is just common sense that you could and/or would get throw in jail for that.
View all comments by DaTruth
So let’s pretend that you have overstayed: can you still do a visa run or will you get locked up at the border?
View all comments by chrispin
dt - interesting. I did not know so many of them were using bkk as a base for all of this. bummer.
cp - overstays off a few days or weeks are not a big deal but u have to pay for them but I have heard of people overstaying for many months and they are afraid to deal with it. I am not sure what happens with those but if u have some priors and an overstay then my guess is that you will get nailed.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
o.k, so there is a Nationality I despise more than the French.
- only just.
View all comments by Daywalker
ahhh - merci monsuier jourwalker
View all comments by doctorbond
As I understand it and from what the officers at Immigration lockup had to say:
If you get caught on overstay IN Thailand (at immigration, get locked up for something else and they find the overstay etc.) you will be locked up pending your deportation. Its not the deportation thats at issue, thats pretty much non-negotiable. The issue is waiting for the right flight FROM JAIL. She told me that if its a western passport (USA, UK, Australia, NZ, EU, etc.) they would deport you likely to Malaysia because Malaysia would likely take you if you have one of these “good” passports. Although this explanation never jived with the fact that that French guy was sitting there waiting for a flight to Paris.
At the border those officials have the discretionary power to simply have you pay a fine and expel you from the country (which they are happy to do so they don’t have to pay the expense of incarcerating you. Yes I know that expense probably comes to 3 baht per day, but hey, they still don’t want to pay it.)
Its not really a worry once you make it to the border, but again be warned there are immigration stings that stop the visa run buses on their way to the border. I’ve never figured out the sense of this because ostensibly they want you to leave so that they can get the fine at the border and you’re gone, but this sting seems counterintuitive to that notion.
View all comments by TheSoiLawyer
“He was told by someone that he could come back to the country after 5 years. ”
Obviously this was a wrong information. What is the rule there, if any?
View all comments by Suk Psycho
Question for you - I’m not sure what country you are originally from (Possibly the US by your grammer) but did you have to take a test to be a lawyer in Thailand (akin to our BAR exams here - no, not the drinking kind) ? Just curious about what the rules are for practicing law in Thailand. Thanks.
PS - your posts are very informative and useful - keep up the good work.
View all comments by Calvin
Calvin: I’m not trying to answer for Ben or to put myself forward as knowledgable — I just want to share a brief story. Recently I was working with four lawyers here in Thailand — I’m talking Thai people, not foreigners.
I asked one younger looking lawyer if she had already passed the bar exam and I was surprised when all four of them agreed that it’s not necessary to pass the bar to practice law in Thailand.
If I understood correctly, simply completing a law degree (presumably at a Thai university) is sufficient, but this understanding is based on a five minute conversation with four lawyers with suspect English skills, so take with a pinch of salt.
View all comments by Werewolf
thanks Werewolf and The Soi Lawyer - I guess my next questions are do lawyers in Thailand get paid well ? Esp foreign lawyers ? Are there actual law offices staffed by foreign lawyers ? Do foreign lawyers work with the Thai gov’t as well or with American companies with offices in Thailand ?
View all comments by Calvin
Is there a limit to the number of times you can do a visa run, I thought Thaksin slapped a 3 month limit on visitor visas, i.e. you could obtain 3 in a row, then you have to leave Thailand for 3 months before you can re-enter (on a visitor visa). Or is that just cr4p?
I think it was about the time they found the guy suspected of a child killing in the US working as a teacher in Chang Mai (or something like that).
View all comments by Spyker
As a clarification, almost all foreign lawyers working in Thailand are carrying work permits which say they are either “legal advisors/consultants” or “business advisors/consultants”.
That is because being a lawyer in Thailand is one of the prohibited professions for foreigners.
Obviously this does not prevent foreign lawyers from giving people legal advice, but they have no legal authority to sign any documents as a client’s lawyer. Signatures when required are always provided by a Thai underling.
So I think this negates the question as to whether foreign lawyers need to pass some sort of bar exam in Thailand all together.
In fact, a lot of foreign lawyers in Thailand are taking a risk “practicing” law here in the first place since legally they are not allowed to be practicing at all.
View all comments by DaTruth
@ DaTruth,
Did you miss ‘Brokedown Palace’ ?
that was an American lawyer representing the girls right? ( Also explains why they lost but thats another story ) .
Lets see if your correct.
View all comments by Jboy.bkk
Spyker,
Foreigners in Thailand can remain on tourist visas for 90 out of every 180 days. The days of the endless border run have come and gone, sorry.
View all comments by The Soi Lawyer
Could a lawyer with a degree from an Australian university admitted in Australia practice in Thailand if he had dual citizenship?
If so, what would would be the required process to be admitted?
Need an offsider Soi Lawyer??
LD
View all comments by lil denning
This is misleading, although I’m sure it wasn’t intentional.
The trouble with Thailand’s visa system is that everyone has different names for the same thing.
A “Tourist visa”, strictly speaking, is a real visa, stamped or stickered into your passport, and acquired at an embassy or consulate outside Thailand in advance of your arrival. It permits the bearer 60 days in Thailand, extendable to 90 days at Immigration for a fee. You can use as many of these in a row as you like - there is *no* limit.
Same for every other type of real visa.
The confusion is over the stamp granted to citizens of most Western countries if they just turn up in Thailand with no visa at all. Usually, they are granted thirty days permission to stay on a visa exemption. These are now rationed to 90 days out of every 180, but they are not visas.
So the endless border run has been replaced by the endless consulate run. Costs a little more, too, but at least folks only have to do it every 90 days instead of every 30 days.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Again, intending to be anecdotal not authoritative, RE: da truth’s comment — it is consistent with what a New Zealand legal advisor told me when he was providing contract review services to me a couple of years ago. Essentially, he is part of the firm so that he can advise English speaking clients, but he is essentially acting on behalf of a Thai lawyer who will actually sign any papers, appear in court if necessary, and be responsible for the advice given. The New Zealander was in effect, offering his expertise as a native English speaker with a law background.
View all comments by Werewolf
ww - I think this setup is quite common all over the world and is not that big a deal realy. I don’t know of a multi national around the world that does not employ lawyers from their won country but stationed wherever they need them to get their business done. The local lawyer only their for document stamping and so on.
I am sure this is a different process though than practicing local law with local issues involved.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
BBB
“So the endless border run has been replaced by the endless consulate run. Costs a little more, too, but at least folks only have to do it every 90 days instead of every 30 days”
……….so does that mean that if you apply for the 60 day visa (ie real visa) prior to initially entering to Thailand, you can keep on extending that visa from within Thailand indefinitely?
If so do the Thais not frown on this practice? What’s the alternative if any?
View all comments by Spyker
@Spyker: No, once you’ve extended the 60 days to 90 days you need to leave the country and start again by buying another tourist visa at an embassy/consulate. You may still be able to get a 10-day extension on top of the 90 for another 1900 baht, but I’ve never tried.
Anyway, whether at day 60, 90 or 100, once the entry expires you need to get out and start again.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Hello all,
thanks for all of the great comments.
First, the man in the story’s biggest problem was being convicted of a crime.
Second, I don’t know the hard and fast rule about how long one must stay out of the country after committing a criminal offense before one may legally return, but I would advise: NEVER returning. This is a country that put you in prison, don’t come back.
Third, since 1976 only those with Thai Nationality may be an Attorney in Thailand. I have never claimed to be a lawyer in Thailand. I’m a licensed lawyer in the USA, but in Thailand I’m like everyone else vis-a-vis the Thai court system. I am a US immigration lawyer, which is federal law so it can be practiced anywhere, but I’m not a Thai lawyer of any sort. I am managing director of a legal services business as defined by the foreign business act of 1999, so take that as you will.
Fourth, sorry I did not make this clear earlier: by tourist visa I meant the visa on arrival you get at the airport. You can go to the consulate and obtain tourist visas there and come back. This is an example of the two branches not streamlining policy. Immigration, the guys you meet upon arrival in Thailand only issues 90 days out of every 180. The Foreign Ministry, in the form of consulates and Embassies abroad, may issue visas as well. I think the Thais figure if you have the money to make it to the Embassy and are willing to go through the hassle then you can stay.
Finally, as for the question of lawyer licensing in Thailand. Thailand has a bifurcated licensing scheme and like everything else Thailand seems to have opted for superfluity over efficiency. Basically a graduate in law gets out of school and takes an exam. If he or she passes this exam they must work under another lawyer for six months and then obtain their license to practice law.
The Bar Exam, which all Thais need in order to be a judge or prosecutor, is a totally different and more difficult exam. The Thai attorneys I talk to spend a lot of time and money to pass this exam even though many of them never use it (i.e. never become a judge or prosecutor and many never wanted to in the first place). I have asked a few of these people why they do it. Almost invariably the response is: it looks really good to have passed this exam. So, yet again, face is a major motivating factor in Thailand.
View all comments by The Soi Lawyer
I think a distinction needs to be made between litigation and transactional law. A foreign lawyer cannot appear on behalf of a client in court.
A foreign lawyer can write and sign advices, conduct due diligence, execute any number of transaction eg bond offerings, syndicated loans, SPA agreements, etc.
Yes, work permits do not state “lawyer” but some sort of consulting position. There are lots of things in Thailand that are “against the law” but proceed as standard operating procedure. I’m not sure why people are so surprised. People would be even more afraid than they already are to conduct their business here if they only had local lawyers to rely on.
View all comments by bkk22
bkk22 - totally true - which is why u find international awyers everywhere, not just in Thailand.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
BKK22 In the words of (a now bankrupt) Ed McMahon, “You are correct sir!”
It is a bit of a quandary, this international legal profession, but as a US Attorney I’ve talked to who has been here for over 15 years has said, “The Thais feel they need our expertise in our legal field, so they’ll leave us to it,” but a farang trying to enter Thai court to argue cases would probably not like the result.
View all comments by The Soi Lawyer
Regarding the African quarter around Soi 3 one night around midnight I took a short cut to get to Soi 5. There were Africans hanging around and it seemed quite intense.
I was accused of being a neo Nazi skinhead.
I’m bald, and shave the rest of my head and I was wearing a suit.
They were threatening and said this street is for blacks only.
I didn’t even try to reason with them with their 1980s skinhead accusation.
I walked off thinking a few digs to the head were about to happen.
Then a taxi driver drove past, they turned on him and he got out with a bat and they were arguing. He was then on his phone - to call his buddies to let them know there were some Africans there for the taking.
I won’t venture down there at night anymore.
View all comments by James B
I hope little Taxi man and his mob dished out a good kicking to those scumbags.
View all comments by Daywalker
There is no problem with overstay if you make it to the border - customs only gives you a fine, capped at 20000 Baht. Every day you overstay is another roll of the dice though - if you are caught anywhere but the border it is the lock up and blacklists unless you can arrange and pay a ‘fine’.
View all comments by Cabby