This essay probably shouldn’t be written. (1)
If The Big Mango Blog becomes popular enough and read widely enough, working TG’s will lose billions of Baht each year.
The economic ripple effects as nail shops, hair salons, body lotion factories, Plexiglas high heel shoe manufacturers, micro mini skirt designers, trashy lingerie purveyors, and tattoo parlors experience decreased demand, lay off workers, and go bankrupt will make the economic carnage inflicted on the Thai people when a group of generals with a 7th grade education choose economic advisors with a 10th grade education to set economic and immigration policy and the same generals place a geriatric dufus who doesn’t know how to check his email in command of the internet pale in comparison.
If the Big Mango Blog becomes popular enough, and this essay read widely enough, countless babies fathered by scofflaw Thai jerkoffs, born out of wedlock to exotic dark skinned teenaged Issan super hotties will go hungry, numerous couch potato Thai parents forced to actually work for a living rather than pimping their daughters for noodle money will stroke out, and a plethora of good hearted hard working hard bodied exquisitely breasted and nippled TG’s will end up black eyed, bruised up, and beaten when they come home to their alcoholic, abusive, barely literate, unemployed Thai mini BF’s with short money night after night.
Maybe some things are better kept secret.
OK. Just kidding. This essay is about salesmanship so I thought I would inject a little salesmanship of my own before starting. ☺
When a farang first arrives in Thailand, the critical tool missing from the toolbox is the ability to negotiate price with working TG’s.
This is understandable. Where else except Thailand are you forced everyday to argue price with a half or sometimes fully naked teenage girl who in exchange for $3 has just spent 45 minutes expertly gyrating her flawless, marble smooth, delectably squishy g-stringed ass on your defenseless half and then fully inflated package—-a TG who negotiates price day after day after day and where negotiating well feeds not only herself but her baby and her extended family.
There just isn’t much opportunity to practice and hone this critical skill back in The World and when you are forced to go up against an expert the financial consequences can be devastating (OK. it’s not that bad just injecting a little more salesmanship here). ☺
Let’s start out with a little abstract theory before getting into the nuts and bolts of actually negotiating competently.
What exactly are you trying to achieve when negotiating price with a TG?
A useful way of thinking about the situation is to think of the negotiation as a game.
Inside her head the TG has a number called the Minimum Willingness Accept (MWA) and the game is to figure out what this number is despite the TG’s best efforts to disguise, beguile, and obfuscate.
The MWA is the amount of baht where if she had no alternative she would walk away from you and say I’d rather go home alone, go back to the chrome pole, go back to eating noodles at the bar, or go back to just waiting for another customer rather than banging you for that amount of money. Unless you use coercion, e.g. put a gun to girls head or drug her, the MWA is the lowest price the TG will voluntarily agree to no matter how brilliantly you negotiate.
The MWA is a dynamic number constantly changing as external forces impinge. 30 minutes to closing or the end of the month and rent is due the TG’s MWA will drop. 8PM and the GoGo is packed or the girl has already ST’ed 5 times tonight the TG’s MWA will bump up. If running around naked in a room filled with horny drunk men grabbing her ass, rubbing her breasts and manipulating her nipples interspersed with undulating like a snake with her private parts pressed against a cool shiny smooth metal pole for 6 straight hours has made her really really really horny the TG’s MWA might drop to zero.
When the MWA goes negative, this means the TG would pay you to bang her. This is like the legendary Unicorn—often talked and written about but never seen in real life. (3)
You can only guess what a particular girl’s MWA is at any given point in time. In the game you are playing a TG’s MWA is her most closely guarded secret and, of course, she won’t voluntarily reveal her MWA. If she does you can be sure she is lying because the TG’s has a financial incentive to lie about her MWA—pretending it is higher than it actually is.
Some farangs are under the impression that their behavior, appearance, and demeanor can cause the TG’s MWA to fall (2). We’ve all been forced to endure a Know It All Cheap Charlie Expat or wannabe Lotahrio pontificate about how they are such smooth talkers and so good looking, etc. etc. etc. that they caused a GoGo girl to go temporarily insane and agree to bang for half her normal fee. Personally, I do not hold my skills in such high esteem. Although I have met some pretty smooth operators in Thailand, IMHO, a TG’s MWA is overwhelmingly determined by external factors beyond your control e.g. how good looking the girl is, how pleasing her personality is, how she carries and presents herself as a woman, what price she is getting day after day, etc.
You can usually make an educated guess about a TG’s MWA. The 12th best looking girl in a GoGo with 25 girls, will have a low MWA. A TG sitting in a group of 5 Gulliver’s TG FL’s among whom she is the 4th best looking—same principle. A TG sitting in the Biergarten for 3 hours and who hasn’t been approached by one farang has a MWA at the bottom end of the Biergarten range, i.e. about 1000 THB.
The game you are playing with the TG is to negotiate in such a way, that first a deal is struck and second that the negotiated price is very close to the TG’s MWA. The closer the negotiated price is to the MWA the higher your score in the game and the more money you win.
There are many ways to negotiate well and no best negotiating style. Negotiating styles are as varied as people’s personality and what works for one person may not work for another. We all know a superbabe back in The World who gets everything she wants from guys by dressing provocatively and just smiling. If we tried the same strategy we, of course, would get squat.
You were right. It shouldn’t have been written.
View all comments by Jack Dawson
Great post, Kenny, and lots of good points expressed very humorously.
One thing I still don’t quite understand about Thailand is that negotiations are only required in Bangkok. In the other main P4P venues of Pattaya, Phuket and Koh Samui, 1,000THB is the standard LT rate (excluding go-gos). Several times in Pattaya I have chuckled when girls have sought assurances that I would pay as much as 1,000. Thank God they don’t appear to know what the going rate is in Bangkok.
While I can understand there will be a premium in a capital city, the mercenary attitude of some of the girls seems self-defeating.
Last night I was wandering past a beer bar near Nana when I was shouted inside by a girl I knew well from a bar in the Cowboy area. She said she had changed bars because she wasn’t getting bar-fined enough at the other place. Then she went on to describe how she had turned down a customer’s offer of 1,500 ST earlier in the evening.
“That’s the going rate in the Nana go-gos for short time,” I said. “That’s a good price for a beer bar girl.”
“Not for me,” she replied. “I am 2,000 short time and 3,000 long time.”
OK, she knows her MWA and she is sticking to it. But on a Sunday night in low season, after changing bars to earn more money, she turned down 1,500THB and went home alone. Baffling.
PS: I bought three drinks for her and three drinks for another girl sitting with us. The main topic of conversation was how cheap I am.
View all comments by On Nutter
Kenny…your posts never cease to amaze me. You have obviously done your homework and some of your points are “right on”. You allusions to the poker table and how they can work for you with BGs are usually “right on” as well. I don’t always agree with your points but I really enjoy reading your posts.
One thing you alluded to but did not emphasize is that once a price is agreed upon, you MUST pay that price. Good or bad, it’s a business…if she was lights out, give her a +- 300B tip. If she was a lump of warm liver…pay the agreed price. Stiffing working girls, especially as a regular, will not be good for your long-term pull rate/health.
View all comments by The Asian Badger
I think the best way is just to be friendly. I have gone with quite a few bargirls for free or next to free (300 baht-ish for taxi) using my ‘tactic.’ I should mention that i speak Thai to a reasonable level and a pretty high cultural awareness (ie i don’t act like a crybaby farang)
First of all, you can’t try to get laid.
Second of all, not every girl will go for you for free. My experience is that the young stunners will go for free. Typically the girls who are making money without any issues.
If a girl talks to you in a bar, strike up a conversation that doesn’t involve her tits. Don’t grope her. buy her a drink or something. see if she wants to trade phone numbers. If you’re still partying when she gets off, take her out for some food or take her to a club. (obviously this is not free, but if you know how to deal with Thai people then you would not have invited a girl who is not a scam artist). You have a few drinks, dance, have a good time. Invariably she will wantt o come home with you or she will set up a date she will come home with you on (normally most girls are pretty happy not to be treated like hookers). If she goes home with you, discretely ask her if she needs some cash. Only twice has the girl asked for money. once was 200 baht and the other was 300. Bear in mind that a cab ride from my house to mor chit sky train station is about 160 baht.
Essentially, don’t make light of the fact that she is a working girl. Secondly dont talk perverted but don’t talk lovey dovey shit. When she asks you if you have other girls, you tell her.. yes. If you’re straight up with these girls, they won’t harass you afterwards. Make sure you tell them you don’t like being called teerak…..
View all comments by Paul
Paul: agreed. The other angle is that when you do have to pay, you generally get far better service if you just give the girl what she asks for (within reason). They usually know their own worth. If she’s back at your pad, feeling a little down because she knows you knocked her down by 500 baht (which is nothing, come on people), she’s hardly going to have the same enthusiasm…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Good point. You can always go up. It’s hard to go down.
View all comments by Jack Dawson
I rarely bring up the subject of money beforehand, and I’m pretty sure have as much fun and pay about the same rates as the next man.
View all comments by Combover
A lot of people commenting here are veterans, people who speak some Thai or just know what they are doing in the scene. Having spent a lot of time in our own bars, you would be amazed how many newbies I meet on a daily basis who ask things like what is a barfine? These people have no clue as to how it all works and would be delighted to get some tips to make their trip more enjoyable and easier.
Me - I am more concerned about how to ask the snooker girl out from the 24 hour snooker club I went to in Bankae.
View all comments by smitty
Fascinating post but my approach is 100% opposite to this, as follows
Regardless of location (although, obviously, a P4P environment) I select the girl of my choice and engage her in conversation. After a few moments I offer a drink. I ask her about herself, her family, her village, etc I do not talk about myself except to reply to specific questions (note - this tactic also works well in the West). As above, at a certain moment I offer a nice compliment, but one that is credible (if she has a flat chest, I do not tell her ‘khun nom yai mak mak’ . At no point do I grope, smooch, squeeze, or otherwise act disrespectfully.
I make a lot of eye contact and do not stare at her tits. I smile a lot.
Then I tell her where I am staying and ask her if she wants to come with me. I do not offer a price. But I bring out a modest bankroll to indicate that I am ready to check bin. She sees the money. She goes to get changed.
The only exception to this process is if I have a special request (do you mind wearing a strap-on to fuck me in the ass? Can your sister come too?) which needs to be brought out before the deal is done.
Now, back in the loom we get down to action. I never specify LT or ST and it is reasonably clear to the girl that her wages are performance based. Also, I start off working on her. If she is enjoying it, she will reciprocate.
When I’ve had enough I tell her how delightful she is but that I must sleep/work/telephone my office and suggest she takes a shower, no rush
If she’s been good, I generally give 500 more than the usual price, if so-so then just the standard rate. Nefore paying I ask for her phone number, which immediately means she will take less this time as there will seemingly be a next time
Of course, there never is
View all comments by martin99z
Not discussing price in advance is an alternative negotiating tactic that only works if the TG will go for it.
You can try it but most girls are too saavy to go for it because what it does is delays the discussion of price until the TG is in the weakest possible negotiation position, i.e. you have already consumed what she is selling and she has to take whatever is offered or leave with nothing.
It also opens the girl up for the abuse that is discussed at the end of the post.
I am sure none of the posters here are the farang low lifes discussed at the end of the post, but when you see a farang who only goes with TG’s who won’t insist on knowing what she is getting in advance you have probably encountered a farang whose bread and butter is the cheating and scamming discussed at the end of the post.
The problem with an honest farang relying solely on this tactic is if you want to bang a certain girl and she won’t go not discussing price up front what do you do next?
One option is simply to go from bar to bar to bar and from GoGo to GoGo to GoGo hoping to find a girl green enough to prostrate herself but if you do this you are eliminating 95% of the girls you will encounter.
Most of the time the girl will want to know price up front and then negotiating competently will come in handy.
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
Kenny, nice writting,I enjoyed the tips, which will help
increase my rap. It also helps to wear some buddha bling bling. Bad thing is you have to take it off before doing the deed. I have also been successful lowing thier bid, bye offering them good longtime massage and I not charge you. Any way, Thanks again for the info. I really cant wait to see paridice again,Poke can my until Sept.
View all comments by Trav Man Doooooooooo
BBB is spot on.
I tend to find the girls ‘perform’ better when they know they’re being rewarded for it.
‘Performance Related Bonus’? is a term I explain to them.
Why bother haggling over 500-1000 baht extra or less?
Blimey.. no wonder the girls prefer the Japs!
View all comments by Day walker
For newbies, it’s probably wise to agree on a price first. If you’re new to the bars, the girls will spot that immediately. And some of them will definitely try to take advantage. I paid 2,500 short-time and 4,000 long-time with a couple of girls during my first week in Bangkok, because that’s what the girls assured me the going rate was. Lesson learned.
I don’t personally find that 95% (or anywhere near that) of girls want to discuss money first. Most don’t mention it at all. But perhaps, as a “seasoned pro”, I have the air of someone who already knows the price, and doesn’t need to be told.
Of course, once you build up a rapport with a girl, the price invariably goes down. I have a cellphone full of “pinch hitter” girls - some from gogos, some from beer bars, some freelance. All of whom will happily stay long-time for 1,000 baht max.
And conversely, I once had a freelancer who I paid generously after the first session (she deserved it), and who’s refused to take a penny ever since. I’ve had free sex with her probably hundreds of times since then. I suspect that if I’d haggled before that first session, and tried to get her to accept as little cash as possible, things might not have worked out quite the same… Food for thought.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
The problem with saying you are not going to negotiate or just pay whatever the girl asks is that when you do that the TG will frequently use a form of the script discussed in the post on you—-only in reverse.
When you say “how much do want to LT” ,the mirror tactic is to ask a very very high price.
If the farang just accepts the TG’s intial offer he will be paying a price way above the normal rate.
This is the same tactic used by the Tuk Tuk drivers and Indian Tailors. When you ask how much will it cost to go from Soi 11 to Soi 4 (about 300 meters), the Tuk Tuk driver will say 500THB hoping you are ill informed enough to accept.
The same will happen frequently if you just agree to pay whatever price the TG first asks. You will get a sucker quote or very very high price e.g. 6000THB for LT in a Nana Disco.
This is especially a problem for those who look like Newbies (or are Newbies)and are likely to be ill informed enough to think that 6000THB is normal for LT in a Nana GoGo.
When you encounter this you can just move on to the next girl, but you will find yourself moving on a lot.
If you think the girls “perform better” when they know they are being rewarded for it, at Step 5 of the script, you can just agree to her offer—the first offer after the sucker offer has been taken off the table.
The TG will think she has out negotiated you and gotten a bargain—-and what girl isn’t overjoyed to find a bargain when shopping?
Maybe the buzz from getting a perceived bargain will carry over to her performance when you get home–it might be cheaper, however, to give her the same buzz with a couple of shots of whiskey.
I don’t think there is any way around the fact, that when you go to GoGo’s and Beerbars and want to bang the girls that work there, it comes in handy to be able to negotiate well.
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
BBB.. I’d like to clone your cellphone!
Are you a pimp?
View all comments by Day walker
When did the GGBGs start defining the costs before performing the deed? When they started becoming mercenary like their western sisters!
I like it better in the old days (pre 21st century) when money was never discussed in advance and you paid the girl whatever you thought the transaction was worth (within reason). At least then there was some incentive for her to actually perform. And I think it worked in the girl’s favour because more often than not I paid the girl more than the going rate just because she didn’t come across as a money-grubbing ‘ho.
View all comments by kwai mai sabai
Alot said here is true. As a newbie on 1st visit a few months back paid 3000THB for LT but friend got away paying 2000BHT for LT the night after for same girl. Had same girl between 3 friends (rotated between us on different nights). So the moral could be she didnt care as she was having good fun as we were going out clubbing after barfining her which cost 1500bht. Bought her drinks and treated her nicely. What a shame that no once has a guide of negotiating barfine with the mamasaams. If someone has a guide then PLEASE publish it. Why do they charge 1500 BHT for bar fines in SOI33 and its the same in all the bars on that street. Its like a set fee between all of them. What are the barfines in Nana and cowboy as we never got round to visting there. Are there any differences?
View all comments by dreamer
So much to comment on here but will only take a swipe at a few:
KMS - you describe a perfect utopian world that would mean all customers are nice and honest and all girls are sweet and innocent. Sorry - it is 2007. What I see these girls go through on a given day is overwhelming at time. Sorry - it is a business. They are selling themselves and to do so without regard for money or safety seems real odd to me. Yes - I know a bunch may chime in with stories of their freebies and amazing short time girls but for 90% of these girls and the customer interactions they deal with - it is a business. Hope that does not spoil the romance. Under most of these circumstances I don’t blame a guy or the girl for wanting to know up front what the deal is. For some people this is the easiest option. For other more experienced guys and their girls - there seems to be another way but one that usually is refined over time.
Dreamer - I think this is a pretty good guide really. As for barfines - they are somewhat determined by area but usually the bars are not at all colluding together for the most part. Nana is generally 600 and cowboy is generally the same but some bars have 500.
View all comments by smitty
so how can SOI33 command 1500bht thats 2.5 times more than nana. Does that mean the tg are better in soi 33 then nana for LT. i.e spend an evening going to a disco before heading back to hotel. Have you heard of anyone sucessfully negotiating the bar fine
View all comments by dreamer
dreamer - u asked the million dollar question. Some people swear the girls are a notch above the typical nana or cowboy girl. Others say they are the same but wear dresses but charge more. I think they used to be a notch above but except for a few places the girls are nothing special really. I do not think u would have any luck at all negotiating a cheaper bar fine but I know that Livingstones lowers the bar fine as the night gets later.
I say get to know a few u like and just have them come over after work thus paying no bar fine at all. Or just go to spicy and have your pick of them all with no barfines at all!
View all comments by smitty
smitty…like your way of thinking. Are there any risks asking the girl to join you afterwork as there is no going back to the bar to complain if something went wrong. Do all the bars shut at 2am as this would be too late to ask one to meet you after work. Howabout asking the girl to pull a sickie the next day so she can be with you earlier or do you think its not a wise idea incase they got caught and you get your arse kicked as well. Is there a website for spicy and is picking a TG from here regarded the same as a freelancer.
View all comments by dreamer
Dreamer:…. 2am is when the party starts!!
Head down to Spicy as ‘Smit Daddy’ says. No bfine..and lots of hotties.
Alternatively, all the girls in the Mango will hook up after work so you don’t have to pay the fine. They all agree that the Mango Management have far too much money anyway
View all comments by Day walker
Dreamer: Met at Spicy my hottest freelancer so far. Yes, you also usually pay the girls. If it’s also possible to hook up there for free I don’t know, cos I only went there once. Maybe other readers have comments about that.
The interior of the Spicy at Ronmuang is quiet boring and cheap in my eyes. But the girls are very nice, will welcome you to drink with you and their friends… maybe they want you to pay the drinks? But I also buy drinks for nice girls in my home-.country, so what. The girl I met there bought me a Long Island Icetea on her expenses long before we talked about going to my place. And her friends paid for themselves.. mostly they were busy talking to each other and dancing. I paid that girl 2000 Baht for the whole night (which I told her before we left Spicy). The next morning when I asked her, she told me she would also have gone with me for free. Don’t know if that is true, but I didn’t regret the 2000 Baht, was worth it 100%. She told me she sometimes goes with foreigners to earn some extra money for herself and her son besides her normal job.
I only take a girl for the whole night, never do short term stuff. And in Bangkok I usually pay between 1500 and 2000 Baht for one whole night. If I would live there permanently I might pay less like BigBabyKenny.
And: I usually always give a girl money, no matter if I negotiated before or if she would even do it for free and is really enjoying herself. Even my former normal Thai girlfriend I gave some money, sure, why not if it stays reasonable. I don’t see big deal in saving 500 or 1000 Baht here and there. Compared to my own living standards I would feel bad not giving a girl any money.
View all comments by Phoenix
Phoenix: I totally agree with you again! BTW I even often gave money to girls whom I did not shag and who just spent the night with me (obviously less than when I shag them).
Furthermore, I’d rather avoid talking about money with the girls I want to pull because it’s more likely to turn me off than on… But I quite often tip them before we go to my place, especially if it’s an early pull (say before 1 or 2am), something like 500 Baht and say “for your drinks” or whatever comes to my mind at the moment. They often are positively surprised by such a behaviour. Thai girls generally are more motivated and less mercenary, less ‘business-oriented’ once they trust you and know you are djai dee. Once a Thai girl trusts you, likes you (even a litem bid) and knows it’s fun to be with you, it is very likely that they won’t expect/ask for any money on future nights (of course you will pay for food, cover charges and drinks) which will not prevent me from giving them some sometimes but makes a big difference because it is not a financial transaction any more but present giving.
View all comments by farangsay
BTW Dreamer, if you want to go with bar girls (not necessarily the best option in my opinion but not necessarily the most expensive either), do not try to avoid paying the barfine (except when the BF is a 1500 THB!!!!! which is just way ‘too mut’). This will almost invariably turn you into a cheap charlie in their eyes and won’t bring you any bargain (especially in terms of fun). Also don’t forget that the girls have a barfine quota to meet each month under which a part of their salary gets cut off.
View all comments by farangsay
Hope that does not spoil the romance.-Smitty
That’s me all right — the hopeless romantic. I guess I just miss the girl-friend experience.
They are selling themselves and to do so without regard for money or safety seems real odd to me.-Smitty
I understand the allusion to payment for services rendered but what does negotiating the price up front have to do with safety?
I’m curious to see how this hard sell approach translates into business in the future. To me it is a total turn-off. I could almost understand it if I was buying a used car or something.
View all comments by kwai mai sabai
To KMS and others who only go with girls who allow you not discuss price upfront.
Here is some food for thought.
If you only go with girls who do not discuss price upfront, you are limiting yourself to a certain type of girl.
If you only go with girls who do not discuss price upfront you are placing a filter between you and that vast pool of chics out there and that filter is pretty restrictive.
It is possible that the type of girl who allows herself to be placed in a situation everyday where she can be taken advantage of is your natural type of girl so everything is copacetic.
But if you experimented, expanded your horizons and started going with the girls who do insist on knowing up front what they are getting into and what they are going to get paid you would open up your world to a whole new universe of women.
Women with stronger personalities, higher intelligence, and savoire faire. Qualities that make their company a hell of a lot of fun. Maybe the proper word here is women full of SPUNK.
Personally, I like hanging with girls with strong personalities, high intelligence, good wit, and that like to play games and try to play them well.
I don’t even hold the fact that they are 22 years old and hot as hell against them.
Don’t we all like playing pool with a girl who plays about as good as we do, when she plays pool plays to win, and when she plays gets engaged by the game—-and can win and lose graciously?
When these things carry over into the bedroom or into some type of relationship or long term arrangement, it adds dimensions of sexual and intellectual enjoyment, engagement,and stimulation that are a totally different world from the girls you are currently limiting yourself to.
Maybe this is not to your taste but maybe it is. How will you ever know unless you try it?
They say “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks” but I am an optimist I think you can.
And Thailand is one the greatest places in the world because it allows the everyday Joes like you and me to do so.
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
— BigBabyKenny
Amen, brother. I don’t agree with much you say, but you hit the nail on the head there.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
KMS - I never quite got the GFE thing when we all know this is a business. Not trying to be blunt but - this is not how GF’s operate in the real world - Thailand or not. My point was only that for newbies it makes sense to operate on the up and up. For girls - knowing what a lot of them go through I don’t blame them at all for setting a price. They are selling something. However - all this being said. I think if you look hard, are a nice guy and have your wits about u - then you can meet girls that get close to that GFE and make it feel less like a transaction. These days I am not seeing that around the go go bars but maybe thats me.
View all comments by smitty
Agreed, go go girls hardly are GFE-stuff these days but some beer bar girls still are…
View all comments by farangsay
Ugly girls too…
View all comments by Combover
Back in the olden days of yore, the GFE was standard practise. There was no such thing as short-time - the girl would take care of you all night and cook you a full English breakfast in the morning. With extra black pudding. And it never ever rained. And everything was free, and everybody was always happy, and there were fairies at the bottom of the garden. That’s what the old-timers always tell me, anyway.
Back to reality, I can fully accept that standards have dropped over the years. At the end of the day, it’s a job to these girls. Many of them figure out, usually between themselves, the minimum service they can provide while still making money, and stick to it.
On the other hand, if you meet a girl and there’s definite chemistry there, that all goes out of the window and you can have some real fun. You might meet her in a gogo bar, or a beer bar, or on the BTS. Difficult to rule venues out…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Amen…
How about them Giants?
View all comments by smitty
From my 1st exp a few mnths back I must admit the ones we pulled from SOI33 were at first 1st a bit cold but after taking them to a disco and buying lots of drinks and hooking up with them the day after it was a hell lot better and felt like the GFE experience we all want. Only snag is the bar fines in soi33 is 1500bht and LT 3000 but that was worth every bit. obviously the bar fines way more then the gogo’s but it could be down to different class of girls who are not there to fleece you. Any takes on soi33
View all comments by dreamer
On Soi 33 I worry that those nice dresses are concealing an AA Road Map of Britain in stretch marks.
View all comments by Combover
Soi 33 is largely populated by girls who think they’re better than gogo girls (they aren’t), and customers who think the sun shines out of their arses because they can afford to drink on Soi 33.
In short, same girls, same drinks, but several times the price and with a bad attitude. Can’t stand the place.
That’s the “dead artist” bars, by the way. There are some nice massage joints on 33, and a couple of pub-style bars are worth a visit, eg. The Office.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
I hope there’s never going to be definite chemistry between me and a gogo girl, would be the beginning of the end I guess!
View all comments by farangsay
“Qualities that make their company a hell of a lot of fun. Maybe the proper word here is women full of SPUNK.”
Unlike BBB, I think I’ll pass on the women full of SPUNK. Then again, they might be hard to avoid
semen
Noun
Synonyms
slang
cream / creme
cum
jizz / jism
load
skeet AAVE
splooge / spooge
sprog UK
spunk
View all comments by kallah
kallah: Depends who’s doing the filling…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
I wanted the GFE, so negotiated with the girl what I expected.
1) Look miserable
Crash my car.
2) Ignore me
3) Burn holes in my clothes on the rare occasion she irons
4) Watch TV all day
5) Spend 3 hours in the bathroom looking at herself in the mirrir.
6) Grow a fat arse.
7) Flirt with any other bloke in sight
9) NOT be impressed when I play footy.
10) Get a headache when I want a BJ.
Of course, No.6 was not always acheivable.
View all comments by Day walker
The Giants suck and Barry Bonds is a big fat cheater.
View all comments by KMS
1500THB for a bar fine and 3000THB for the girl is crazy. Plus you are also paying for cover charges, drinks, food, etc. Do you realize that a college educated office worker makes 15,000THB/month?
The final insult is that these are Soi 33 girls. I’ve tried to accept that area (and Washington Square) but the sheer number of Isaan grandmothers working there is depressing.
If you are going to spend that much money on a girl why not just go to the club and meet them there? Since you are spending a half month’s salary (for an office girl) in 1 night you will be able to corrupt even the “good girls”.
If you haven’t already, be sure to experience a soapie at a high end massage. With the money you are spending you can easily buy a supermodel (literally, no exaggeration).
But be careful. Once you experience a quality, high end massage with a supermodel you will never go back to the girls working the beer bars/go-go’s/clubs.
View all comments by SiamSquare
ss…can you recommend the high end sopaies and what bars and club would you also recommend where you dont end up dealing with the grandmothers as on soi33. Finally what do you think the bar fine and LT rate for a descent TG should be.
View all comments by dreamer
d - barfines are set by the bar. this is a non-negotiable part of the biz. You can pay me more if u like but there is no discount on the barfine.
go to tulip:
http://www.2thebigmango.com/?p=7
what do you have against grandmothers anyway? :
http://www.2thebigmango.com/?p=85
View all comments by smitty
Yup, the barfine is officially non-negotiable. Unofficially, just get the girl’s phone number and meet her after work for free. Unless she’s a Mango girl!
99% of the farang-oriented Bangkok gogo bars set the barfine at 600 baht. Some are slightly cheaper (eg. Shark on Soi Cowboy still only 500), some are slightly more expensive (eg. Safari in Patpong at 700). Beer bars are often a little cheaper, but not always.
I never negotiate for LT. Usually new girls just want short-time, because they haven’t figured out how much they like you yet. If you’re just business, they want to get it over and done with. If you turn out to be someone they can have fun with, they’re more interested in hanging around.
Take her for a few drinks and maybe a club, then back to your place, officially for ST. Once the dirty deed is done, tell her she’s welcome to stay in your nice, air-conditioned apartment in your big bed if she wants to. It’s going to be far comfier than her single room shared with her 3 “sisters”, most of the time. Sometimes she’ll still want to leave. Other times, you get LT for free…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
The barf fine on the other hand, the amount by which you compensate a bar having soiled their sofas after one too many Changs, is entirely negotiable.
View all comments by Combover
I have hung out on Soi 33 a little bit and have some insight into the clientele. I haven’t hung out there enough to be 100% certain so maybe I am wrong.
Frequently they are usually older middle aged but not ancient guys who live or work in Bangkok and like to be “pampered”.
They look like they have decent but not great jobs, dress neat, and don’t look like they are scraping by each month.
When you walk into these places there are a ton of girls and no customers. The girls are not that good looking—more the motherly type.
Of course, when a guy walks in he is the center of attention.
He doesn’t have to worry about the girl leaving him searching for a better customers like in a GoGo because there are no other customers and the girl usually gives the guy 100% of her attention.
Most of these older middle aged guys don’t barfine that much so the extra money doesn’t add up to much over time and I have the feeling these are the guys who know how to beat the system, i.e. meet the girl outside work, so the barfine doesn’t matter anyway.
According to internet accounts, there aren’t enough of these guys to keep all the Soi 33 bars in business so maybe they will change their business model in the future.
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
1,500 Bar Fine. NO WAY.
Sure, I’ll let those Soi 33 girls wind me up but usually end up at Lolitas for a McBlowjob.
View all comments by Khun J
I’ve only been to Soi 33 once, I didn’t find the chicks all that more attractive and definitely not worth the extra 900 baht for bar fine. Saying that though, I did enjoy it as a change of pace from the go-gos and the fact that the guys I was with were good mates with the owner (Lookie Lookie bar) and we kept getting free rounds and the girls did take care of me a bit more than in the gogos. Like Khun J, I just let the staff get me going then cruised over to Cowboy to pick up my regular girl where the bar fine is much lower
View all comments by Jase
d- Soapies very wildly in price and quality. To generalize, expect an average 2 hour experience to be 2000THB. I recommend strolling down Ratchadapisek Road. Check out a few establishments before you commit to one. Someone else on this blog did a massage review, but one I like is Poseidon. They have great room themes and plenty of rocking hot university gals. http://www.poseidon2000.com If you go there be sure to take a look at the girls on the 3rd floor with the numbered tags that start with a “T”. Unfortunately those gals are 6,500THB a pop. Also, do not have a taxi drop you off at these places as they will give the taxi a kickback and charge it to your bill. If you do go by taxi, get out a block away and walk to avoid the kickback.
To be honest with you, with the exception of the Big Mango Bar, I enjoy Pattaya’s nightlife better than Bangkok’s. Simply put, the girl’s attitude in BKK is business where as Pattaya it’s about having fun.
In regards to your question on prices, barfine prices are fixed and the girl’s tip varies widely. Occasionally a girl will be fairly insistent not to want money, but I think it’s always wise to give a reasonable amount anyway.
Obviously there are exceptions, but I think these estimates are fair:
Bangkok prices:
500-700 for barfines
1000-1500 for ST
unknown for LT
(my opinion, there’s no reason to LT unless you find a very
fun gal and you are at a beach resort. I’m embarrassed to
be seen around BKK or my apartment building with a working
girl)
Pattaya prices:
300-600 for barfines
500-1000 for ST
1000 for LT
View all comments by SiamSquare
I agree with The Asian Badger — the price you agree on is what you *must* pay in the end. If service sucks, pay and move on.
The *only* exception is obvious non-performance — if we don’t get to have sex for whatever reason (e.g. she’s on period, no BBBJ when one is assumed a norm, or complains of pain and right upon entry stopping the deal). In this case I still pay 200 baht to keep the peace, though I don’t feel obliged to.
In a restaurant, it’s rarely an option to pay half the price if the food was bad and you still ate a chunk. However, if you didn’t touch the dish, or just had a bite and decided it’s inedible, you can usually refuse it.
***
When it comes to discussing the price, I like the girls that don’t mention it, but don’t mind the ones that do ask “how much you give me?” It’s their job, and fair for them to know in advance.
Hard bargaining is a definite turnoff, and indicates a bad service in making. Normally, they start off too high, and negotiating down does not make her hornier.
If there is some sort of chemistry or good vibe between me and a girl, she will NOT try to bargain hard. If there is no such thing, service will be bad anyway.
I admit, sometimes I really want that 9 no matter how good the service is. If just looking at her makes me hard, then a hard bargain is OK.
View all comments by Crocodile
Thailand, unlike The World, is a bargaining society where the price of a lot of things is negotiated. When you get out of the tourist areas, most of the time the price of things is not fixed–especially big ticket items i.e. anything that costs more than a couple hundred baht.
Given that this is the society in which TG’s have spent their whole lives, I do not think bargaining over price is going to turn off a TG in anyway.
In fact, I think the opposite might be true. How is the TG going to have any respect for you if you accept the first price she offers which is obviously on the high side?
And it looks kind of wimpy if you just run away as soon as price comes up.
And, like I said in previous responses, if you only go with girls who let you get away with not discussing price upfront you are excluding most of the girls in GoGo’s and Beer Bars and placing a very restrictive filter between you and the TG’s which will prevent you from experiencing some of the most fun girls.
And besides, most girls like strong, confident, powerful men.
What makes you thing that doesn’t carry over to a guy with superior negotiating skills—especially one who negotiates skillfully and shows shows some grace, sportsmanship, and maybe a little mercy while doing it.
I humbly suggest you bite the bullet and try negotiating price a couple of times using the script in the original post.
Maybe the first couple of times you don’t do so well but you will get the hang of it very fast and quickly will begin doing well in the negotiations. After all, you are only negotiating with working TG’s.
IMHO, you will find it doesn’t turn the TG’s off in any way, you will save some money, and you will find the universe of girls you are banging greatly expanded.
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
yhooo, bbk is not negotiating foreplay before the foreplay.Yes, Tg dig a man who can bargin in a polite and funway without affending. Sometimes, a silent stare even works. Poke can mi, and choke dee from Las wages.
View all comments by Trav Man Doooooooooo
The real lookers demand 2,000+ baht and don’t haggle - they don’t need to. If you don’t pay it, the next guy will.
How long have you been living here, BBK? I can’t remember the last time a girl wanted to discuss a price with me, and I’m hardly a shrinking violet when it comes to hitting the bars.
In my experience, probably a good 90% of the girls I go with don’t mention money at all. After the dirty deed’s done, I hand over the (correct amount of) cash, and they don’t even bother counting it half the time.
In fact, the only time I’ve even brought up the matter of money recently (like, in the past 3 months) was when arranging a threesome with a couple of Mandarin girls, which is always a little more complicated. They asked for 2,000 each, I told them 1,500. They agreed. So yes, in situations like that I guess it’s required. But I don’t do that very often.
IMHO, the number of girls who will label the haggler a cheapskate (even if they keep smiling and don’t say anything directly) far outweigh the number of girls who will “respect” him for paying them less than they’d quoted for having sex with him.
All IMHO, of course. And let’s face it, it would be a dull city if we all went about things the same way. And I’d find it even more difficult to get a decent seat upstairs in Baccara…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
BBB, Dude; you sound like you have some serious game. I want to party with you dude or atleast exchange stories over a bear lao at the Big Mango. I will be landing in the land of smile Sept 7, have fun or is that me chun soup,and choke dee
View all comments by Trav Man Doooooooooo
If you are talking about a difference of a couple of hundred baht it may not be worth haggling and if you did you would correctly be labeled a cheapskate.
But what happens when you want to bang one of the superstars at a particular GoGo and she says she wants 6000 THB?
In this case, the girls normal rate might be above the normal rate for the other girls in the GoGo and the TG wants to let you know so there are no misunderstandings later. In her way, she is being honest by bringing up price upfront.
Should your only option be to run away now that the issue of price has been raised?
And again, what if you want something that is not part of the normal package? This doesn’t have to be anything wierd, e.g you want to do the girl 2 or 3 times but don’t want her to stay until the morning—sort of a medium time.
If the girl brings up price because she wants to know if you are going to pay her for short time or long time should your only option be to give up and go home?
And there are some things that are in a grey area like BBBJ. Some people think is part of the normal package others don’t. If this is important to you and you want to make sure that it is included and price comes up should you just give up?
These are cases where what is to be negotiated is within a 1000 to 4000 THB range. Within the context of these transactions this is a significant amount of money.
Personally, I want price to be brought up in advance. This is not because I want to bargain the price down but because I prefer that everything is up front so there are no hard feelings at the end.
Most of the time, I want to see the girl more than once. If there is a bitter goodbye because what you think the girls should get and what she thinks she should have gotten are different, then it is unlikely you are going to be able to bang that girl again.
I also like setting the price up front because it removes a lot of legitimate questions and concerns from the TG’s head and the two of you can just go home and have some carefree fun together.
If you talk to some TG’s and ask them about it, the number of times the girl gets short or no money when price is not discussed up front far far far outweigh the number of times and the total amount of money when a farang gives them something extra because they really liked her.
Most of the dudes who brag to their friends afterwards about how generous they were to the TG after banging without a set price either lie to you about what they gave the girl or when they tell the truth it turns out “generous” in their mind is laying a 300 THB bonus on top of a base price that is at the bottom of the normal range making the final price nothing special and not really all that generous.
I realize that a lot of people from The World are not comfortable negotiating price because in The World that is not the ways things are normally done.
But in Thailand negotiating price is the way things are normally done.
Negotiating price is nothing to be ashamed of in Thailand. It is normal, accepted,and has no social stigma attached to it.
And when you are doing it,there is no reason not to do it competently.
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
you bring up an interesting point - does short time necessarily mean only one round, or is it as many rounds as you can fit in a certain amount of time?
View all comments by kallah
I’ve been around long enough to have tried it all ways, have settled on an approach which sits well with my charming happy go lucky nature, and I’m with BBB on this. All of this analysis paralysis does not sit well with me at all I’m afraid.
View all comments by Combover
sort of a medium time–BBK
I think this would take some real negotiating skills.
View all comments by kwai mai sabai
This post is getting boring, took me ages to read. I tend to agree with BBB 90% of the girls don’t ask you just give them the right amount and they leave happy. With the 10% that do ask I just tell them the right amount and they say ok. Got to admit that most don’t want any cash from me. Ok some are just playing the game but thats cool, but if they don’t want it the first time there never gonna get any. Have to be hard or you’ll get played guy.
Had a few girls offer to pay the barfine, drinks the lot. Some offer to pay the bar and I get the drinks plus the 2000 baht whatever time. I asked a girl who wanted to go with me for free why she would do it and se said “sometimes I like to f*ck with my eyes open”. I didn’t take her because I had a bad feeling about her (also not my type).
I like the phone calls “works boring I pay bar come see you”.
I have on 2 occasions negotiated myself just for the fun of it I got 1 baht from one girl and 100 baht from another. Guess i’m a cheap shag. Not enough to give up my day job. Wonder how many it would take to make up my wage, could be fun trying.
Funniest thing i’ve seen is a friend of mine pimped his visiting younger brother to a bargirl who was starstruck by the 18 year fresh looking lad. He still thinks his older brother is the man for setting him up with a hottie, but we all know she paid a 1000 baht. Classic.
View all comments by Young Royal
Some guys figure it out after the first girl…others never figure it out.
Those “unenlightened” ones are doomed to mediocre experiences no matter how much they bribe the girls.
View all comments by Anderson Cooper
Nice Article,
Pitched right at the newbie.
You might also want to do a similar article on the 10 phrases used by bargirls when they first meet you to size up which tacktic they are going to use and how much they are going to negotiate.
Ie:
1) Where you come from - translated how much money you are worth.
2) How long you stay here - short time/ long time/ girlfriend / girlfreind by distance (ie jackpot outside nana/cowboy)
3) You holiday? - are you working, working means repeat business opportunities and therefore more effort put in the bedroom for return business at a good price.
4) Where you stay? - do I want to stay long time or how quickly can I get back.
etc.
Obviously the savvie newbie may get better service being mistaken for a long timer. We used to love playing the tourist for kicks to see what siiliness the girls would come out with.
And on the scumbags - totally agree.
Respect begets respect.
View all comments by Dazza
after being here a while you can generally tell if the girl genuinely likes you or she is just filling you with empty compliments for some cash.
if she likes you and you never mention money but take her for some nice food, buy her a few beers naybe a club and not treat her like a prostitute (although obviously……….she is) you get much better success with freebies
and if you grope the life out of her in the bar, you chances are fucked, its embarrassing when you see it
View all comments by Stevie G
Hi folks, with interest I read this thread, quite amazing what you all have to say about TGs. In my opinion, therefore I follow Paul and the others following him, the best you can do is treat it like a date, be gentle, nice, and make nice compliments. I never had problems with the prices afterwards, and never negotiated before. It is just a game, and play it as a game, do not be too horny and grab her, no style. In the end you will feel like you had a great one night stand which was a lil bit pricey, but hey, it is also pricey in London or NY, when you pay the drinks for a woman
Best regards, baaikn06
View all comments by baaikn06
If you want a girlfriend or a GFE, the Bangkok GoGo’s and Beerbars are the wrong place to look.
You might get a girl who is saavy enough to realizes this is what you want and try to simulate it, but if your people reading skills are even average you will be able to see the truth.
If you try to treat most GoGo and Beerbar gilrs like girlfriends you will most likely get worked and frustrated.
Maybe you can exercise the willing suspension of disbelief that English professors talk about and still enjoy your experience.
A more realistic view is that Gogo and Beerbars are for short time banging.
You show up, there are a raft of girls naked or semi-naked, dancing and doing everything within their considerable powers to get you to take them home instead of the 50 other girls in the bar.
Groping, lap dancing, talking dirty etc. are all acceptable if that is what you want to do.
As they say in Thailand, “Up to you.” Most GoGo and beerbar girl’s objective is to torque you up so that you will bar fine them and welcome and encourage this behavior.
Personally I enjoy getting torqued up by a torquing specialist.
If you are looking for a girlfriend or a GFE read the posts on Gulliver’s and the Fresh Produce Market.
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
its so gross when you see the girls unwillingly getting groped in a bar
i was in a gogo last night (name escapes me but it was in cowboy) and this 1 guy was grabbing, pulling and leching over this girl quite violently to the poin