editors note: Welcome to the world of technology and my disdain for all things Microsoft. BBK sent me the original document in the new MSFT office format. Well. There is not a new office for the Mac so I used the official DOCX converter from MSFT to post this. Turns out the converter sucks ass and missed some information. Here is the new version. I think the only major changes are the footnotes. Sorry folks.
Also - I know not everyone agrees with everything we say here but that’s the whole point of a communal based blog. Disagree all u want but please no personal attacks. Thanks. Keep it real.
The internet is filled with online comments about how the Japanese have driven up ST and LT prices in Bangkok. These comments, invariably by farangs on short rolls(see footnotes) , usually contain a subtext which portrays Japanese as uniformed morons who “pay too much” because they are idiots or lack information about prevailing prices(see footnotes). Blame is usually heaped on the Japanese for raising the prices for everyone.
This is far from the truth.
Japanese guys in Bangkok are not idiots. Just because a cup of coffee in Tokyo is $10 they don’t moronically dish out $10 for a cup of coffee in Bangkok.
One of the main reasons most Japanese men travelled to Thailand is to take advantage of the lower prices compared to their home country. This is different from most farangs who are in Thailand to enjoy something that is not available in their home country. Japanese guys can get Thai style action at home. They travel to Thailand to get higher quality action and at a lower price.
It just doesn’t make sense that they would travel 2000 miles on their vacation to take advantage of the low prices in Thailand and then when they enter a Bangkok girl venue suddenly get hypnotized by all the girls on display and forget that in Bangkok things cost less here time after time after time after visit after visit after visit, year after year after year.
Find a group of Japanese who speak English, strike up a conversation and you will be surprised. Most Japanese are more intelligent and market savvy than the typical farang and are fully aware of prevailing prices.
The typical Japanese guy is more discerning, observant, and sophisticated than the typical farang gogo or beer bar customer who can’t figure out why short ballers don’t act like long ballers and get mad every time they do.
Most Japanese are more like banging connoisseurs, enthusiasts, and aficionados.
Think about the difference between wine drinkers and guys who only drink American beer. The Japanese are the wine drinkers and the typical farang is the American who only drinks American beer and can’t understand what Englishmen, Australians, Germans, and the rest of the world see in their dark warm laagers, ciders, malts, etc. and think wine drinkers are fags. If you are still not seeing it, compare Japanese porn to American porn where you can see the same underlying principle manifest itself in a different way.
The Japanese flock to Rainbow 4 at Nana because the girls there are better looking than the girls at other Nana venues or are different than the girls available in Tokyo. They are at Rainbow 4 Nana for the same reason a wine connoisseur goes to a wine tasting—to sample something new, different, exotic, unusual, and maybe more pleasurable than what they have available on a day to day basis at home where prices are higher.
If you are unconvinced, drop into Rainbow 4 Nana or The Thermae and watch the Japanese guys operate. They take their time to check out all the TG’s in the bar, carefully select one or two, call them over, invest in ladydrinks, and spend some time talking to the TG’s before making a decision. Watch carefully and you will see the TG sent back and another one interviewed much more frequently than by the typical farang. The Japanese guys are looking for something special. They take the time, make the effort, and expend a little money for information, and are willing to pay a premium when they find it.
This also explains the prevalence and popularity of Karaoke/hostess bars that cater to Japanese. When you karaoke you get to interact before you transact. Sure you have to buy the girls drinks but you get valuable information for your money-unlike the lady drinks at most Go Go’s. The girl sits with you, you talk to them, and you get to know them as you drink together and sing.
Watch a group of girls choose their own song and sing it and you have a lot of high quality accurate information about the girl’s attitude, personality, their performance envelope and whether the asking price is worth it.
If you have a choice between four girls, one who chooses to sing old time country, another likes hip pop, the third is a rapper, and the fourth picks a Sinatra classic you have a pretty good idea about what each girl will be like when they get home.
More information is generated while Karaokeing and it is more accurate than the information garnered watching a girl dancing in a Go Go bar. At GoGo bars a girl’s body and face are on display. At a Karaoke her face and body are visible but so is the inside of her head. For the banging aficionado what is inside the girl’s head matters.
The reason most Karaoke bars are “only for Japanese” is because banging connoisseurs are less prevalent among farangs than among the Japanese in Bangkok. The vast majority of “Japanese” karaoke joints welcome farang customers—-when there are any. When Karaokeing you are paying for information which only has value to the banging connoisseur—most of whom in Bangkok are Japanese.
This also explains the popularity of TG’s for Japanese customers. Everyone has heard the jokes about the Japanese—“3 inches, 3 minutes and 3000 THB” but these jokes mask reality(see footnotes).
Sure the Japanese pay a little more but the typical banging experience is also different. When a
Japanese guy thinks he has found something special and is paying a premium for it he wants to savor and enjoy it. Compare this to the common rude, drunk, sweaty, greasy, smelly, overweight make a deposit in the ATM style farang session, add the fact that Japan has a culture (some would say fetish) of personal cleanliness and hygiene and that the Japanese guy has taken the time to get to know the girl beforehand and you can see why TG’s prefer Japanese customers—when they can get them.
The price difference is also not as great as the internet would lead you to believe.
The going rate among the Japanese at the Thermae is only about 500 to 1000 THB higher than the normal ST rate of 1500 THB. If you take into account the fact that the girls getting this premium are better looking, better dressed, and better groomed you can easily explain the 500 THB differential.
The Truth About The Japanese is that they are not paying more simply because they are idiots or lack information.
footnotes:
“Short Roll” is also part of the gambler’s lexicon. A professional gambler’s bankroll is the money he has available for wagering. When a gambler is on a “short roll” it means the amount of money he has available for wagering is small relative to the stakes at which he is betting and the standard deviation inherent in the type of bets he is making. For a player on a “short roll” it is possible that a “normal” run of bad luck will wipe him out.
The subject matter was inspired by On Nutters humorous post but is on a subject I have pondered and investigated in the past. I am writing An Idiot’s Guide to Negotiating Price with Working Girls which should be done in a couple of days.
When a working TG cracks these jokes to a farang think about the chameleon like abilities of a good Long Baller discussed in A User’s Guide to Gullivers and OnNutters , You Pompooey, Bald and Old. You Pay Bar Me?
Thanks again BBK for delving into an interesting subject and providing a different perspective on a topic many tend to gloss over.
That said, I can’t say I agree wholeheartedly. I studied Japanese at university, visited several times, eventually lived/worked in Tokyo for a year and got to know more than a few Japanese people rather well. I can speak passable Japanese, although it’s not an easy language. Here’s a few of my observations.
Japan is highly, HIGHLY xenophobic. Most Japanese (like most Americans), do not own passports and do not leave the country. Most that do go on overseas trips go on tours where they never leave the safety of an organized agenda. So the sample of free-spirited travelers/Bangkok-residents are quite different from your “average” Japanese, who are genuinely more predictable and downright-robotic than most other nationalities IMHO.
The last number I was quoted was 30,000 Japanese expats living in BKK. I don’t know if that’s still accurate, but here are a few anecdotes: if you go to Kunokuniya Bookstore in the Emporium, you’ll find a magazine called “G-Diary” and another mag on Thai boxing written in Japanese. These are published in Bangkok, primarily for J-expats. Even if you can’t read a word of Japanese, buy a copy of G-Diary and check out the ads, see how the BKK establishments are pitched to Japanese punters.
I also think you’re romanticizing the Japanese by comparing them to wine experts. I’ve met some really smart, funny and switched-on Japanese people, but I’ve also encountered a greater number of flat-out idiots from that same country. There’s a saying: “Japanese people are polite with their shoes on,” meaning that in public they will behave differently. There’s a measure of truth in this. They’re literate, but their literature is controlled. They’re polite, but their politeness is enforced. Remember that any Japanese man who decides to take up residence (except for work-assignment by a large Japanese firm) outside of Japan is making a bold statement by turning his back on the Japanese norm. Decades ago this was very rare, but now, it is common.
Even with fluent language skills, it would be difficult to get any sense of the J-expat community in BKK. But years ago, I read a long post, in English, by a J-expat who’d been in town awhile. He says that they refer to the Patpong soi Thaniya as Thaniya University. As in, you arrive in town and it takes you years before you “graduate” and realize that the fake Japanese-hostess environment the Thais have created is a ripoff, and you can do much better elsewhere. This epiphany is your “graduation.” But of course a typical Japanese guy will feel at home at Thaniya, will appreciate the J-fluency of the Thai gals and the just-like-home atmosphere, esp the lack of any foreigners (other than, of course, Thais who’ve learned to act Japanese).
A few notes:
I knew a guy in Pattaya who translated J-to-E professionally and he translated a couple of the G-Diary stories, they were hilarious. I can read enough of the ads to get the girls’ names and pertinent info.
I have met Thai working girls who speak FLUENT Japanese. They always have Japanese nicknames and can make their voices go up an octave on cue.
The most authentic Japanese food I’ve found outside Japan is in Bangkok. Ramentei (there’s a branch on Thaniya and another one across from Emporium on Suk 33/1) is eerie: you could be in Chiba or Osaka, except that no one is smoking. I’m particular about Japanese food and even in Hong Kong, where I live, there’s no place like Ramentei (it’s what Japanese would call a “Chinese” restaurant). They have an English menu but the main menus are all in Japanese and Thai.
There’s some symbiosis between Thai and Japanese cultures: both have royal families, emphasis on polite speech and different verbs for the same action, depending on status-level, specific gestures to be performed in a specific style (bowing in Japan, wai-ing in Thailand). And the soapy body massage (like the department store and many other things) is a Japanese invention.
I could go on but I hope that other readers will chime in with their opinions. Thanks again BBK.
J
View all comments by Jack
I think Big Baby Kenny likes to hear himself talk. Words, words, words - too many of them to get the point across.
I do appreciate that you want to put a different perspective on things. Kudos for that.
But your view on the Japanese is romanticized, IMHO. I have talked to working girls I know fairly well, and while they agreed that they like to get the extra money from the Japanese, they were also worried of going with them, because apparently quite a number of them are into very kinky stuff.
View all comments by rick
I think Big Baby Kenny has a sharply honed ability to observe and report on what he observes. His words do an excellent job of making his points. I wish he’d write even more.
I live in the main Japanese area of Bangkok. From everything I see in this part of town, Kenney’s observations are right on target.
In my building are many Japanese. Sometimes I strike up a conversation with them at the pool or in the restaurant. Some can speak English, but mostly we speak Thai with each other. The Japanese I’ve met here are amazingly fluent in Thai, and have a wide understanding of Thai culture.
I patronize several massage businesses that cater primarily to Japanese, but where they make me feel welcome.
The girls working there are nice to me, and always treat me well, but from years of observations, it is clear they prefer the Japanese men over any white men who happen to wander in.
I value Kenney’s analyses along these lines, and am looking forward to reading more.
View all comments by Peter4
Ah yes, the wine connoisseurs who brought you bukkake.
And the thought of finding “something special” at Rainbow IV. I like that. That’s funny. How long have you been here BBK, a day and a half?
View all comments by Jack Dawson
I think the fact the Japanese invented Bukkake makes my point pretty well.
Who else but a banging aficionado would think of getting a football team to do that on a girls face and film it in HDTV?
And realize that there are millions of people out there who enjoy it and pay money to see it——over and over and over and over again and again and again.
A guy with that kind of imagination that applies his gift to porn deserves the title of BANGING CONNOISSEUR in my humble opinion. :))
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
Cool. Blog meetup and bukkake party at the Mango next weekend, ok? I’ll bring the towels…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Hmmm, BibBabyKenny certainly likes to write but I’m afraid his piece on the Japanese is nowhere close to the truth. I’ve lived in Soi 4 Nana for a solid 8+ years and, to my shame and delight, I go out 7 nights a week. I don’t always get laid, I don’t always want to get laid, but I have to be in the know. I yield to the correspondants who have lived in Japan about culture, but I doubt that anyone has seen the Japanese in action more than I have outside their culture in Nana and the Thermae.
This is the story on these guys. They are not connoisseurs of anything except their own culture and when abroad they travel in groups (like a lot of Englishmen do on their first fearful trips to the LOS-I can write about those similarities later)for protection from the unknown and because they like to make decisions on a group basis. The lone Japanese man is a rarity on the hunt. Because Japanese culture is so highly ritualized and the sexes basically do not mix much at all as they grow up, the Japanese man who arrives in Thailand is, especially if young and it’s his first vacation, a sexual neophyte. If he has shagged anyone, it’s been a hit and run, and if he’s married, he has made love to one woman after an exhausting day as a salaryman that saw his day finish with a piss up with his mates. So forget that BS about fine wine. These guys are scared to death. God, I’ve seen young guys pay the bar fine for a beauty I have already been with stay on and on in the bar sipping on a coke because his mates have gone off and he has no one to consult about his big evening.
Now, don’t get me wrong about these guys. I actually really feel sorry for them because they know nothing about women and the Thai women, once they get the Jap bit in their teeth, take them to the cleaners for as much as they can. A naieve girl in from Isaan who works in a Japanese dominated bar soon gets the picture about these helpless blokes who know they have to perform in front of their mates, but who don’t know what to do when they are on their own. The wax works figures you see sitting in R 2 (which, by the way,does not contain the best looking girls in Nana-that award goes to R 1 and 4 and Erotica) are mostly there on the recommendations of the group. They are not surveying the scene with a deeper knowledge and sophistication than their beer swilling farang buddies. They have just never seen anything like this back home. They wait until the girls present themselves or the mamasan presents the girl. Everyone gets a drink, including the mamasan or even the escort guy who showed the customer to his seat. Sometimes there are hundred baht tips at the end, all to save face. Hell the Bar has changed phenomenally over the last few years but the group recommendation has not been updated. This recommendation thing travels and because it is group info, the Japanese stick with it. This group info is so tight that Japanese customer after Japanese customer will show up to go with the same number. The girls know this and reject all others until the guy who knows the menu arrives.
Well, you can say I’m just like BigBabyKenny, all talk. Let me give you some anecdotes in support of what I say. Oh, and you should know that until I understood the Japanese scene, they used to really piss me off and sometimes make me jealous by scooping the babe I wanted. And keep in mind that racist farang conceit of 3,3 and 3 or 4, 4 and 4 is complete bullshit. You should also know that I have kept a daily journal for the last fourteen years and know exactly where I was and what I was doing every day since 1 Jan 1994. I know whereof I speak.
I like girls who are fresh to the scene and not tainted or made hard by the business. The lovely Meuy came to work in my favorite bar for a brief summer a couple of years ago and I went home with her three or four times, unusual for me. I only ever paid her 1500 baht for short time. On our last encounter, I asked her (I can speak Thai) if she had ever been with a Japanese man. She said she had been with five-4,000 baht each time and no sex. They didn’t want it. They wanted a dinner companion and someone to cuddle.
I met a lovely girl in R 1 one night, a bit plump, but I just liked her face. I was her first customer and she was great because she was experimenting with some stuff she had never tried before (like a BJ). I never went with her again but she got a taste of the Japanese traffic, then became some guys mia noi. But she is back at work now in R 4. Her customers are always Japanese, always, sure for the money but more for the less hassle-I’ll bet more than half her engagements involve dinner and shopping. She’s older now, not in the least the looker she was, but she is on somebody’s recommendation list. I’ll bet it’s at least 4 grand for dinner, maybe more. The lovely Nok (I’ve followed her big breasted career all around Nana and provided her with some of her new skills-she asked me because she trusts me) was a mia noi for a bit and when I asked her if she liked Japanese she said they are very shy. See, the Thai girl leads the dance. They may affect some Japanese mannerisms, but they are fully in control of most of their hapless customers-I actually admire them for it (and, by the way, farangs might keep this in mind-Thais can spot an emotionally vulnerable guy with his romantic heart out of control in the blink of an eye, so don’t get arrogant).
I was in Thermae before the Japanese invasion occurred and these two young Japanese guys came in and sat with their cokes. A coupls of very pretty girls came over to talk to them and asked them if they wanted to go with them. Their reaction was to look at each other and have a conversation about what was going on. Another guy, with the worst combover I have ever seen in my life, puffing out cloude of smoke to disguise, or display, his nervousness, went out the door with the prettiest girl in the palce afyer she looked at him long enough with her baleful eyes and welcoming grin.
This is getting too long but let me get in a couple of other things. Japanese porno is largely about more than one man making love to a woman, or fetish behavoiur, or what looks to be like painful intercourse. All of this crap come out of a culture that keeps men and women apart for most of their lives and has ritualized roles for both sexes. Some girls have complained about Japanese men getting violent with them, slapping them, pinching them, or humiliating them. A friend of mine told me the guy she was staying with didn’t want her to take a shower for days or change her underwear-so much for cleanliness.
Let me close by saying that after I got clued in with the behaviour of Japanese men, I get a popup in my mind when I see one of my faves go with a Japanese guy. Even if they sleep together, no one has made love to her tonight.
Sorry if some readers think I sound like a know it all, but everything I know comes from experience and I am, by nature, a keen observer of human behaviour.
Cheers
View all comments by deeper
I have to admit. I don’t agree with much of the premise presented here. But I love how the writing gets people commenting - good and bad. I love Tokyo. I love the design, the organization, the people, the style and so on. I used to help manage a Tokyo team and I found them to be great workers, trustworthy and hardworking but sometimes they had a hard time thinking outside the box. I could write reams on this but give me a Japanese team over a Chinese one any day.
For some reason thought I don’t like the places that cater to the Japanese in Bangkok. They get ruined in some weird way. What I do like though is they somehow attract hotter women but I have always found the pulls from the places like Rainbow to be horrible. The girls are cute but stonebang in my opinion. I also get tired of when they ask for tips when they sit with u and the way they demand to know if they are getting barfined. If u don’t barfine they leave. This attitude is from the Japanese who come in, make a decision, barfine and leave.
I also hear that a part from the money the girls don’t like the Japanese very much at all. Why? They treat them the way they treat their own ladies. Like second class citizens. One of the things I hated about working in Japan was the way the men treat their women. I think the Thai girls love the Farang sometimes cause we tend to treat them like normal girls and enjoy what they are offering.
This is a touchy subject but it brings out some good discussion either way.
View all comments by smitty
Deeper:
Excellent read.
View all comments by daywalker
“Deeper’s” long ramble above is fundamentally flawed.
He bases his comments on what he’s seen around Nana and The Thermae.
But, lower Sukhumvit is very far from the Japanese venues in Bangkok.
Although a few Japanese do go exploring in that area, the vast numbers of them go elsewhere.
“Deeper” gives no hint that he even knows where most Japanese go for fun here.
There are actually three distinct areas in central Bangkok which cater to Japanese customers.
I live in one of these areas.
In my building most of the residents are middle-age Japanese men.
They are mid-level and senior management at various Japanese companies here.
Some stay years at a time, while others rotate in on temporary assignments for a few weeks or a few months before returning to Japan.
In the mornings their cars and drivers are lined up at the front door to take them to work.
How many of the regulars at Nana and the Thermae can we describe that way.
At night and on weekends, when these men go out for fun, they are invariably freshly showered, dressed neatly with clean shirts, pressed trousers, and suitable shoes.
Their wallets are suitable, too.
I don’t speak any Japanese, but I doubt there is a word in their language for “Cheap Charlie”.
Among Japanese men, I never see the sort of low-life slobs that abound at Nana.
I’m sure the girls noticed that long ago.
That’s why the prettiest Thai ladies serve the Japanese trade.
And they get the best rates for doing so.
Living among expat Japanese, I have learned that they seek out quality in everything: service, cleanliness, food, honesty of staff, attention to details, etc.
A business that caters to Japanese will almost always offer the best value for the price, compared to other businesses here.
That includes the Thai ladies.
BigBabyKenny got it exactly right.
View all comments by Peter4
@BBK: Nonsense
@deeper: Was with you until you namechecked Erotica as a bar with good-looking girls. I’m guessing you haven’t been there recently - it’s died a death. Other than that, spot-on.
@Smitty: “Japanese over Chinese”: amen.
@Peter4: I guess you live on Thong Lo? I know it well. It’s not where the Japs go whoring though, is it? I’d be careful when denouncing the “low-life slobs that abound at Nana” if I were you…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
I’m with Jack and Deeper here. Incidentally, if you overlooked Jack’s comments (the first reply in this thread), I sincerely suggest you go back and read them again. They’re a thoroughly thoughtful, genuinely intelligent contribution to this topic.
BigBabyKenny may be fun to read, sometimes, but his professed impressions of Bangkok are generally so far off the mark, so naive and superficial, that I wonder if he’s not really just having us all on. Surely he’s out there somewhere, kicked back with a beer in his hand, getting a huge laugh out of all these folks who jump in to say how much they agree with whatever gibberish he’s decided to fling at us this time.
View all comments by Old Asia Hand
If you’ll allow me to put on my pedantry hat… the US$10 cup of coffee in Tokyo is about as popular in Tokyo as it is in Bangkok and is up there with the fabled $100 melons. Unless you’re in some ridiculously expensive place, a normal cup of coffee will set you back between 200 and 300 yen, which IIRC is 60 - 90 Baht.
Anyway, I have this weeks copy of Stern in my hands, which has finally got to the Thailand part of the series, and for better or worse it doesn’t feature any current or former Mango girls. Or anything much about the farang scene, except a paragraph or two which give the impression the typical bargirl keeps a whole toyshop’s worth of pingpong balls and other paraphernalia up her private parts. There is a photo of an 80 year old woman though.
View all comments by NotAnyBangkokRelatedWebsite.com
Thanks to everyone for reading and commenting.
Also thanks to Old Asia Hand for referencing my post. It seems to have been a bit lost in the shuffle, but that indicates that people seem to have strong opinions on this and got stuck into the discussion, which is at is should be.
Much of what’s been written rings true with me, because Japan is damned enigmatic when you get down to it. Yes, the guys in Thong Lo (I’m guessing that’s where Peter4 lives) or another professional enclave will dress well and have cars/drivers, and likely go to hostess-bars at Thaniya, often to entertain biz clients. Japan is very, VERY much a group-culture, it’s indoctrinated and while you may have close friends who are different from others within your Group, you are defined by a series of “Group-Bubbles” if you will: first and foremost you are Japanese, then there’s co-workers, families, and friends. Codified behavior and Group-Identification are what form Japanese society, as Deeper noted (I don’t agree with all his points, but he has done a lot of observation and notation, and hats off to him for that).
I had a serious conversation with my boss when I worked in Tokyo about the group mentality. I asked, for example, if an individual suffered from asthma or some disease where environmental tobacco smoke was an immediate hazard, could that individual complain on their own behalf, say, in a letter to an editor of a newspaper? There was much discussion, but eventually my boss felt that if that person belonged to a Group that had a purpose, he or she could complain within a Group-statement. But not as an individual. This is about as close as I’ve gotten into the real feelings regarding this whole Group thing. The Western concept of an individual’s rights, even to the point of illness and death, is not a part of Japanese culture. When you tap into J-culture (and as Smitty noted, the design and pop culture, advertising etc, is admirable…and much imitated by Thai designers), you get it all. Some gaijin (same-same farang) fixate on one aspect of J-culture and that’s accepted, as long as it’s something noble and traditional like kendo (the wooden-sword martial art) and not something like porno.
I started watching Japanese porn in the mid-80s, when I moved to San Francisco and found a shop in Japantown that rented it on VHS cassette. While the “mosaic” censoring was (and is) weird, I just couldn’t believe these lovely Asian women. I did not understand the aggressive, almost-violent nature of the men in these pornos: banging en masse, constantly yammering about how much the girl is enjoying herself (which she affirms, while grimacing in pain with her eyes tightly shut). I didn’t understand it until I worked there and spent time getting to know Japanese men and having the porn-culture jammed in my face every day. I could go on about my take on Japan’s treatment of women, but my overall impression is that within that culture, women are a necessary but inferior sub-species. I’m no feminist, but that’s the vibe. After awhile (especially given what “mama’s boys” these guys are), it turned my stomach. It still does.
These guys are pampered and spoiled rotten by their mommies, perhaps because the business culture they’re expected to participate in is so god-damned ruthless. I’ve had Thai working girls tell me about clients who would just want to talk and be reassured, rather than have sex. This is the “Mama’s Boy” complex. As for the kinky guys, I’ve heard about them too. Japan is the Kink Capital of Asia. Thais don’t really understand the lust for latex, BDSM, and all that stuff but boy do you see a lot of it in Japanese porn: bukkake is the proverbial iceberg tip. I’ll bet there are Thai women raking it in from providing such services and once they get on “the circuit” they will not need to advertise. One place where the cultures dovetail is with the understanding for discretion. The neon, blaring rock and bar-culture is the environment us Westerners relate to—Thais have figured that out, thus Patpong for the US GIs on R&R from Vietnam, then Soi Cowboy and NEP. There are Japanese punters making the trek to Rainbow 4 nowadays, but they are in general younger and not as trad as the middle-aged guys with the cars/drivers, who are almost certainly working for Japanese zaibatsu (huge corporate congloms like Mitsui, Mitsubishi or Kao).
I’ll stop here, but I must also mention that if you go to Fuji supermarket further down Soi 33/1 you will find Thai-made imitations of Japanese food products, not just Kewpie Mayonnaise but obscure items like pickled ginger, bean curd, etc. Thais have learned to cater to Japanese tastes, and have profited thereby, across the spectrum.
j
View all comments by Jack
Sorry there Peter 4 but I think you’re off topic. BBK was writing to explain to us Japanese behaviour in the context of Bangkok nightlife, not the life of Japanese middle class people in Thailand living near Emporium. That’s what I was responding to, not how they dress, or where they shop, or how fastidious they are. The Japanese, like all of us, are entitled to live their lives anyway they please, but you won’t find many people who will say they are extremely adaptable outside their own culture. A great piece was written in the now defunct Stickman column several years ago by a Japanese who explained how the hostess bars in Patpong that denied access to farangs worked. In essence he said to us, you aren’t missing anything-it’s a highly ritualized scene with overpriced drinks but ‘we’ feel comfortable there because it is within our realm of experience. And he went on to say that taking someone home for the night was rare.
But maybe you could write and tell us what you have seen of the Japanese middle class men’s behaviour in the places they go to (outside Nana, Cowboy, Patpong). It would be very interesting because I don’t know anyone who has ever written on that aspect of life in Bangkok.
Cheers
View all comments by deeper
Bangkok Bad Boy, I yield to anyone’s choice of women and their beauty. I am partial to Erotica because I have been going there since it opened and I have taken loads of them home. I was there two nights ago But my selection criteria are likely different from most men. When I came to Bangkok in ‘99 there were sweet natural girls available everywhere in Bangkok-on the streets, in Thermae (you could hardly move at midight), the Beer Garden, Nana Disco, the parking lot, and all the main entertainment areas. There were no tattoos in those days, no slicon noses or tits apart from the ladyboys, and no control by the authorities. I never had a set of physical specs and I became imprinted with the simple shopgirls and university students freshness and attitude. That has pretty well gone now. I never go with girls who have tattoos, who smoke, who look like they’re on something, who’ve had a child, who have blond hair, who have silicon, and who look like they have been on the game for too long. I’m not that fussy about how beautiful their faces are and I don’t care if they have that willowy look. Anyway, my friends tell me I have the longest list of exclusionary characteristics of anyone they know, but they have served me well over the years. Using these criteria has meant that I have only paid two barfines in R 4, both sweethearts from Buriram who left the bar about two weeks after they started-that’s why I go out so often. Men like what they like, what can one say.
Cheers
View all comments by deeper
Kenny is correct, the Japanese don’t go for their fun in Thonglor.
(And I don’t live anywhere near Thonglor, either.)
As for “denouncing” the low-life slobs in Nana, I was there this week.
(Half dozen chicken wings in The Big Mango is still 100 baht, and the dress color of the night was red.)
But my point still stands: the farang flotsam and jetsam that washes up there is disgusting.
Deeper, mate, thanks for your personal opinion that my comments are off topic.
I didn’t know that you were the forum mommy here.
And, Deeper, please bring your observations up to date:
The Stickman column is not defunct.
It is back to being published every week, just as for many years before.
(Although just who is writing it now is not clear.)
What Deeper missed in his critique of the OP, is that there are really two “worlds” in Bangkok for Japanese.
The first is when farangs see a few of them who wander in to farang areas, such as Nana or Cowboy.
Or when they go into the mixed area of Suk 33.
But those Japanese are merely a few outliers exploring for some new adventures.
The second “world” in Bangkok for Japanese we don’t see.
What is fascinating is that Deeper didn’t even mention the main Japanese areas in his critique of BBK’s original post.
I don’t wish to beat up on Deeper, but his thinking is obviously limited to what he sees around Nana.
BBK, in his original post, looked farther afield.
The reason I agree with the concepts that BBK presented, is that the Japanese men have us white men beat on so many levels:
First, they do what is most important to the Thai ladies: they pay generously.
As a group, Japanese will consistently pay more than farangs.
I don’t need to explain to anyone here the crucial importance of that to the Thais.
Second, Japanese go in groups.
Thais generally go for fun in groups, too, rather than as just one couple.
Thai girls prefer that, because then they can go with their friends.
And the TGs feel safe that way.
I don’t mean group sex.
What I see is groups of 3-5 Japanese men walking along the street, or into my lobby, with 3-5 Thai ladies in tow.
Sometimes, then, I ride up in the lift along with them.
Each pair gets off at the appropriate floor and goes to separate apartments, but the men went out at a group and returned as a group.
Finally, and I’ll repeat this:
We all know how obsessed the Thais are with cleanliness and appearance.
The Japanese men who frequent Bangkok are consistently clean and well-turned out.
Thai ladies notice that instantly.
There will be some exceptions, of course, among the 20-something Japanese boys who come here on cheap tours.
Those exceptions wear baggy pants, baseball caps turned 90-degrees, and sullen faces.
But those boys are not the main customers for TG services.
The Japanese men who are regular visitors or expat residents in Bangkok, present themselves very well.
That’s why the best of the Thai ladies prefer Japanese customers.
On the other hand, the vast majority of farangs here — but not all, of course — look like, act like, and smell like, low-life scum.
So its no surprise that farangs generally get the leftovers.
I challenge anyone here to simply walk the sois in the Japanese areas.
You won’t be allowed inside most “Japanese clubs”, but just look at the girls seated on the stools waiting out front.
You will see an amazing selection of young, Thai women: every one of them very pretty, and many are stunners.
But when a white man walks past, they look right past him as if he doesn’t exist.
We don’t belong in that world, and they are letting us know.
Personally, I’m delighted to see the Japanese influence here in Bangkok, that BBK described in his original post.
They are just all around more decent in most every way, on average, than the average farang who washes up in Bangkok.
In Japanese restaurants, I never, ever, am bombarded with that American-Negro rap music.
Among Japanese men who frequent the pool and the gym, I never see dirty, ragged, clothes, dread-locks hair, and I can’t remember ever seeing any tattoos.
Even when they are drunk, they are polite and some can even be friendly.
I have never, not so far, encountered an angry, abusive, berserk, Japanese drunk.
No wonder that the top ranks of TGs prefer Japanese to us.
View all comments by Peter4
Quit teasing us.
I know one of the Japanese areas is Soi Thaniya in Silom. Where are the other 2?
And can you throw in a little 411 (american slang for information. Can’
t tell where you are from by they way you write) on the different formats of the girl venues?
I think it would be fun to get a haircut, put on a coat and tie, splash on some cologne, take 10,000 THB and sample some fun—Japanese style.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
For those wanting additional reading on this topic, here is Stickman’s personal experience — at one level in the Japanese world of Bangkok.
http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Weekly2006/weekly266.htm
View all comments by Peter4
Kenny -
I’m not trying to tease.
I’m using this information to see who among posters here has the knowledge, and who does not.
You are correct, Soi Thaniya in Silom is certainly one of the three.
Thaniya would be the Japanese equivalent of Patpong: old, filthy, down-market, pushy, crowded, and very well-known.
Stickman wrote about it last year, and I’ve just posted the direct link above.
That area around Emporium is another.
It is probably the most expensive of the three, but also the most accessible to farangs wanting Japanese quality entertainment.
(Of course, there is also Ratchada — where Orientals of all varieties are welcomed — but you didn’t need me to tell you about that.)
But the largest of the Japanese areas is no secret — it is in plain sight — but white men simply don’t come over here.
Before I got to be recognized, I was pointedly ignored.
And, at some, got a wide-eyed look as if to say,
“Oh, nooooo, Khun Farang, please don’t approach this door. Pleeeese don’t make us lose face by turning you away.”
If you are eager to know where, find a way to contact me privately by email, because I don’t care to mention it on a public web forum.
The Internet is not the nice place it used to be, so I am being very careful.
However, even if you knew, about all you could do — and I, too, for that matter — is walk past and keep walking.
—
Now, another point and another source of my information.
My point is the vast difference between the quality of girls available to the Japanese, and that we see in the farang areas.
A few years ago, one of the staff in my building (a Thai man), asked me if I could help his younger sister to practice her English.
Now I am not now, and never have been, an English teacher, but, of course, I was happy to help.
When Thai staff ask for small favours for family members, one does everything possible, right?
Previously, I’d never met the younger sister.
She turned out to be a “pretty”.
She is one of those young women you see doing product presentations at Paragon, or fondling expensive, new, cars in photos in The Bangkok Post.
She works “in marketing” at a company that caters to Japanese doing business in Thailand.
Do you know what a job “in marketing” involves for a Thai “pretty”?
I didn’t, so I asked.
With a few blinks of her eyelids she replied, “Oh, I contact the customers.”
“Doing what?,” I pressed.
More eyelid blinking, “Oh, I do customer service.”
I did not press further.
But she did show me the company web site: a legitimate business doing something or other in real estate.
She always had two cell phones at all times.
When one rang, she would relax, laugh, and talk in rapid Thai.
When the other rang, she would look serious, never laugh, speak in a soft voice, and mix in a few words of Japanese.
Your imagination can take it from there.
One time she apologized that next week she would be away traveling with the customers of her employer.
On her return, she brought me back a very fancy bottle of rice whisky, from Vietnam!
Thai girls don’t just up and go to Vietnam for lunch.
Another week, off to Hong Kong, for more “marketing” with Japanese customers.
In Nana plaza, this girl would never even make it to the bottom of the escalator.
She would be besieged with offers before she even passed thru the entrance.
And I met a few of her friends during this experience.
Even when wearing their “Saturday jeans” and lacking makeup, they were stunners, with petite, willowy figures, huge eyes, and long, silky, dark brown hair.
You will see a few of this caliber over on Suk 33, at premium rates, but they are impossibly rare in Nana or Cowboy.
Top shelf girls like these simply don’t bother with the farang market.
They _can_ land Japanese customers, so that’s where they are eager to do their “marketing”.
View all comments by Peter4
Peter4.
OK. I am a sucker and fell for your cheesy parlour trick.
Congratulations. I’ll give credit where credit is due. You suckered me.
Like all good scams, I fell for the bait–that there is a secret place only Japanese guys know plastered in hot chics despite what my common sense told me—-that a business selling something wants to be found by potential customers and wouldn’t hide itself so that people who might want to buy from them couldn’t find them.
I’m not buying that a 3rd area exists. Fool me once ……
Sukhumvit Soi 22 is nothing special. Some massage parlours and karaoke clubs that cater to Japanese. I have been in a fair number of them and they are fun and worth a visit.
The Japanese places on Soi 33 are more of the same.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
Peter4: My God, I certainly hit some hot buttons there, didn’t I? Well, if you knew me better you would know that I am not interested in being the person who comes out on top, but on the other hand I do not shrink from saying what I believe to be true. Anyone can challenge that and I accept the challenge and if I am wrong I will yield.
First, Paul4, Stickman is defunct. The new column is not being written by the same guy. I used to contribute regularly to Stickman (original) and I even tried to carry that over to Fakeman II-I sent him a story about the elephants and ladyboys in Soi 4 (look it up in the archives) but he changed some fundamentals and the style wasn’t there and I have never written to him again. The real Stickman wasn’t like that. Maybe you write Fakeman II, or maybe someone else, but the original ended an era. If you think the new column has the same integrity, then I am happy for you, but nobody I know in Bangkok bothers. Well, be that at is it may.
The thing the readership of this blog are looking for is not your passionate defence of male Japanese and their culture, but where they go to play and what they do. I accept you say the ones you know don’t go to the places where ’scum’ like me hang out. But where do they go and what do they do?
You know, I have to tell you something you may not know. I have been writing for thirty five years and more. Writing, because it is work and requires precision of expression, can reveal a lot about the writer. I see from your writing that you talk a lot about fashion, personal fastidiousness and hygiene, about how farangs (you count yourself as one) are rather slovenly and unhygienic, and how you are not subjected to American-Negro rap in Japanese restaurants (now that is a pretty old-fashione word, I mean Negro, that no native speaker would use these days). You also never include a single anecdote about yourself and the nightlife in Bangkok-even BBK is suspicious about you. As a person dares to write they reveal themselves-interesting, isn’t it?Well, let’s move on.
Peter4, tell me what you think of the Japanese romantic tradition. Westerners easily fall in love with Thai women and many marry and take them back to their home countries to become citizens and part of the community. Thai women, who want the money and support as you point out, would seem at first glance to prefer this possibility. After all, they can’t sit outside a Japanese club for the rest of theor lives, can they? How many Japanese men marry Thai women?
Cheers
View all comments by deeper
Hey all. I am going to repeat the warning once more. We don’t want rants berating each other on this blog. I don’t like Mangosauce. It sucked ass in my opinion due to the out of control non contributory commenting. We will just start deleting the comments if we have to but I hate wasting my time like that.
So try to keep things from getting personal and keep it above the belt.
We want a busy blog and we want the interaction but we don’t want rants.
Thanks ever so much!
View all comments by smitty
On any forum, some of the posts are not worth reading beyond the first paragraph, but BBK’s recent comments are — as always — worth careful consideration.
First, BBK, I had no intention to “sucker” you or anybody else.
Sorry, mate, but you took a wrong turn there on the “sucker” idea, one I certainly didn’t intend.
I hope you will reconsider your opinion.
My purpose, as always, is to uncover who knows what, and then proceed with a rational discussion from there.
On the Internet, there are so many who write so much, but know so little.
Finding someone who observes carefully, and thinks carefully before he writes, is an uncommon pleasure.
BBK, you are one who does that, and I said as much in several previous posts above.
I still hold to my high opinion of your ideas and your writing.
And I will, once again, encourage you to write more on topics such as this one.
I never suggested “secret” or hidden places.
That concept appeared from nowhere.
What I specified were places in Bangkok that are largely unknown to Caucasians; places certainly unknown to those whose world ends at the end of Soi Nana.
These are areas where I rarely ever see another white face, where the only non-Thais are mainly Japanese, with some Koreans and a few Taiwan Chinese.
Deeper’s first post made a big deal of the Japanese he sees in Nana and Thermae, but that is not even close to Japanese territory in Bangkok.
Any Japanese that wander in there are just outliers.
The way the Japanese operate here is the reason so many TGs prefer their business to ours.
And it is the reason so many Thai businesses are painting Japanese words onto their shop windows, spending money for new neon in Japanese, adding Japanese language to their menus, adding Japanese food, and stocking Japanese products.
Those TG and those Thai-owned businesses clearly prefer Japanese customers.
But Japanese-run nightlife places do not want to attract any and all potential customers.
If they attract a lot of Caucasian customers, their Japanese regulars will start going elsewhere.
We Westerners profess to be “anti-racist” but the Japanese haven’t caught on to that concept yet.
They don’t want to mix with us, and they _really_ don’t want us mixing with their women.
I observe that every day, in ways big and small.
It is one of the “truths” about the Japanese in Bangkok.
Here’s a fresh example:
Tonight I was eating in a nearby Thai restaurant.
This restaurant advertises in several Japanese-language guidebooks, and many of the customers — but not all — are Japanese.
A TG from one of the neighborhood massage shops arrived with a Japanese “date”.
He was taking her out for a nice diner at a nice place.
I have been into the massage shop where this girl works at least 50 times over about 5 years.
She always smiles and greets me warmly, as do the other girls.
She knows my name, where I come from, what kind of work I do, and the building where I live.
I have availed myself of her services several times.
BUT … in the restaurant a few hours ago, suddenly I was a total stranger to her.
She looked right thru me, walked directly in front of my table to sit at a table only 3 meters from mine.
Zero acknowledgment of me.
Not a hint of a smile.
Nothing.
Of course not.
She was in the company of a Japanese customer.
She is smart enough to know that her Japanese date would not be pleased if she would greet a Caucasian man.
I don’t take it personally.
Over the years, many similar incidents.
The TGs already know the truth about the Japanese, the truth that we white men are just starting to glimpse.
BBK wrote, “The typical Japanese guy is more discerning, observant, and sophisticated than the typical farang gogo or beer bar customer who can’t figure out why …”
BBK got that exactly right.
Some of the other postings on this thread confirm his conclusion.
View all comments by Peter4
I realize that topics like this, like many on Bangkok, can result in “flame-wars”…all contributors seem to have strong opinions, that can be a good thing.
But please read Smitty’s post above: Smitty’s advice IMVHO is always good.
Let me intro a topic related to this issue: have you guys bought a copy of G-Diary and checked it out? As it is written in Japanese, by Japanese journos living in BKK, for Japanese tourists/residents, it has information even if you can’t read the language. I can read a little, and next time I’m in BKK can pick a copy and try to give an overview. But I’m curious if any of you gents have checked out a copy.
Thanks again and jai yen-yen, amigos.
J
View all comments by Jack
Appreciate everyone trying to take the high road here. I think it will make for a better quality site over time.
Jack - I have picked up G-Diary a few times and there is another new mag out that I have checked out from a new Japanese editor that is selling in Thailand and Japan.
I guess not reading Japanese, these magazines provide little value to me other than the pics and the locations of some places I did not know about. The detail is amazing compared to similar Farang style magazines.
View all comments by smitty
Cool beans, Smitty, bring it along next time we meet up and I’ll try to glean what I can.
When I worked in BKK I kept trying to interest freelance journos in befriending Japanese residents or better yet, the publishers of G-D and the boxing mag and doing a feature. Never cd get anyone to make the connection, but it wd be a good read, methinks.
Yr so right about the detail. Japanese customers, as pointed out elsewhere, expect high quality/cleanliness/detail. Just standard-operating-procedure for the most part.
I’ll try to find the translations done years back, or contact the original maniac, see if he’d be up for more translations. Of course, since he does it for a living, it’s like asking any professional to work for free just to amuse u…not always best-practice!
BTW, the Thai-made Kewpie mayo is a dead-ringer for the original J-version…then again, so’s the Korean version, and now, the Chinese version, which I buy at my local supermarket in Hong Kong.
J
View all comments by Jack
G-Diary descrips in English (found a couple). NOTE that Family Mart is a Japanese-owned chain:
Thai cathouses coming to a convenience store near you
February 20, 2004
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai/archive/news/2004/02/20040220p2g00m0dm998000c.html
Japanese sex tours have long helped prop up the cathouses of Southeast Asia, so it should come as little surprise that from next month guys will need look no further than their local convenience store to catch up on the goings on of Bangkok’s brothels and bordellos, according to Shukan Shincho (2/26). G-Diary, the “G” standing for “gentlemen’s” is a glossy Japanese language monthly published in Thailand and devoted to that country’s netherworld.
G-Diary will go on sale for 680 yen an issue at Family Mart convenience stores in Tokyo, Kanagawa, Chiba and Saitama prefectures starting March 15.
“Its contents are basically adventure travel stories,” publisher Hidetoshi Usui tells Shukan Shincho. “We cover information on the mainstream and underground of all Southeast Asian countries. We’d like people to see it as travel stories for something out of the ordinary or a virtual experience of a different dimension.”
Since first hitting shelves in Thailand five years ago, G-Diary has grown to a circulation of about 8,000.
“One of the other top features of this magazine is its deep coverage of nighttime entertainment. It’s packed with ads from Bangkok bordellos and could also be used as a guidebook for sex joints in the Thai capital.
It was originally intended to be only a travel magazine, but more than half our readers now buy for the information on the flesh trade,” Usui tells Shukan Shincho.
Thailand is an enormously popular destination for Japanese tourists and long-term dwellers. Only the United States and Singapore have more overseas Japanese residents than Thailand. About 1.2 million Japanese head to the Land of Smiles every year.
“We’re already selling G-Diary in about 500 bookstores in Japan, mostly in Tokyo, and we decided to sell it in (2,500) Family Mart outlets to increase people’s awareness of it,” Usui tells Shukan Shincho. “If sales go well, we’ll start offering it at convenience stores throughout the whole country.”
+++++++++++++++++++
It’s all about prostitutes & gogo-bars!
http://www.maxasia.net/2007/07/07/its-all-about-prostitutes-gogo-bars/
I always knew it was useful to be able to read Japanese! Last day I came across this incredible magazine: Gdiary! You know, I already tried to list some sort of Bangkok “hot zones”, but what’s better than complete maps, reviews and even discount coupons???
Yeah, Japanese truly are professionals: they have a dedicated (”entertainment”) road plus thousands of other “japanese-only” massages… but still, they have a magazine for them in which they list every single establishment (Massage Parlours, Go-go Bars, Salons, SM shows and the like), put them all on maps (Bangkok: Soi Taniya, Patpong, Ratchadapisek, Soi Cowboy, … but also Pattaya) and give instructions in thai for the taxi drivers!
Priceless.
View all comments by Jack
Thanks, Jack, for that excellent information.
(Obviously another man who knows his way around.)
One of Jack’s links above has a further link to the treasure map.
Not a perfect map — and somewhat outdated — but better than nothing.
As you look over the map, several things to notice immediately:
Nana is rather small compared to the other areas.
Cowboy and Suk 23 are merely a dim blur, and I don’t think that is accurate.
But what this map shows is that Nana is merely a rather modest area, compared to so much else that is available in Bangkok.
That is why I stated that the expertise of the Nana experts ends at the end of Soi 4.
The map must be rather old, because it shows nothing for the huge and busy area to the East and to the North of Emporium: Suk 24, 26, 33, 39 and Prommitr.
The Petchaburi area is certainly much more extensive than shown.
The area around Huai-Kwang (centered on Emerald Hotel, and stretching South to Rama 9 station) is massive, but the map doesn’t show much there.
I was surprised to see any activity at all in middle Eckamai.
That area is such a low-level slum that I would be surprised if many Japanese spend much time there.
Do the Japanese have their Cheap-Charlies, too?
I don’t know.
But BBK’s original post was not about “where” the Japanese go; it was about how they operate when they do go out.
And that is the heart of the matter.
In one post above, Kenny suggested, “I think it would be fun to get a haircut, put on a coat and tie, splash on some cologne, take 10,000 THB and sample some fun—Japanese style.”
I shall offer a counter-point to that:
A Japanese man will already have the haircut, not need to get one.
Cologne will be irrelevant to him, because he never thinks about impressing a girl:
He is renting the girl.
He is the customer.
The girl does everything she can to impress him.
The essential factor is not how they dress, it’s about their way of doing things.
TG in those places are trained and attuned to the Japanese way.
Your white face won’t counter-balance the best haircut or the most expensive cologne.
10,000 baht in your wallet won’t make too much of an impression either.
You are not Japanese.
You don’t fit in that world.
And neither do I.
I’ve discovered a few places in my neighborhood where the staff is polite and friendly when I arrive.
And the service is almost always to a high standard.
But when a group of Japanese men arrives at the door, that’s when the staffs go into high-gear.
It’s easy to observe: The TG really want the Japanese business.
They politely tolerate ours, or, in some cases, turn us away at the door.
BBK’s original post provided an excellent start on explaining why.
Okay, lads, here is the map:
http://tinyurl.com/2a8ukx
View all comments by Peter4
ですね・・ｗ
ほんとですか？
View all comments by Σ(゜ー゜;)
For those confused by the Japanese entry, he basically said:
“hmm…is that so…really?”
I can’t read the name of this gentleman, but if he can read/write Japanese, perhaps he would care to share his views with the rest of the contributors.
Thanks, or in other words:
Hajimemashite, dozo yoroshiku. Watashi no namae wa Jakku desu. Anata wa?
Romaji to Eigo ga ii…gambarimasu! Dozo, onegaishimasu.
J
View all comments by Jack
has it occured to you that some TGs just prefer asian clientele?
View all comments by anon
That’s exactly right Anon. When I was in high school I wouldn’t even take a second look at a girl if she wasn’t a blue eyed blonde. Asian girls didn’t register at all at that time. I’m sure it’s true for many of us farangs.
It’s the same for Asians. It’s natural to be attracted to people that look similar to you. We (farangs chasing Asian skirts) are the exceptions, I think a lot of us forget that sometimes.
Watch Thai TV and you’ll see a huge amount of Japanese, Korean and Chinese TV series that have been dubbed into Thai.
Next time you’re in a Nana gogo watch the reaction of the girls as different types of customers walk in the door. By far the biggest reaction comes when young, good looking Japanese boys walk in.
I would guess that a large chunk of the Thai female population don’t think we’re the “handsome men” that we’re sometimes lead to believe we are, and would much rather be with a fellow Asian.
Another point that most of you seem to miss here is that if things are so peachy-pie in the Japanese end of the market, why did the Japanese start moving into the traditionally farang areas. 10-15 years ago there were no Japanese in Nana and Soi Cowboy. Now both areas have bars catering predominately for Japanese customers, and Thermae sounds like it’s also become a Japanese venue.
I would guess that there was a realisation some time ago that we farangs were getting a better deal in our areas then they were in their’s. Word got around and more and more a turning up.
I’m not about to complain however, because I think they also brought with them a large number of girls that we wouldn’t otherwise get to see.
View all comments by Tokyo Joe
TJ - 2 great points. I do however think that if your Thai is decent enough to talk to these girls who go with the Japanese they like them for what they are as customers. Very few Thai girls like them as boyfriends. But the Thais do think the good looking Japanese and Korean men are superstars. I think you will find that sure they like the Asian men but the Thai girls will mention they like how Farangs in general, not always, tend to not treat women the way a lot of the Asian men do where women are basically considered a second class.
Let me give u an example:
I used to sell software to large Korean companies in Seoul. I was out one night with your typical middle to upper class Korean men having a night out on the booze. Almost all were married. None of them called their wives to say they would be late. Over drinks they told me a story of what it means to be a good Korean wife. They said the worst Korean wife would expect that if their baby cried in the middle of the night the husband would take turns to deal with it. An okay Korean wife might let the husband wake up but would not expect her husband to actually do anything. The best Korean wife would make sure her husband never heard the baby cry.
This may be an extreme example but I think the analogy is pretty much how Korean men think.
Most Farang men do not have that view of women and I think the Asian girls who know the difference actually prefer Farang men due to this.
Let’s face it though in the bar scene it is mostly all about economics except where the girls are using the bar scene as a means to find a husband.
On the Japanese moving to the Farang venues that is something I was always curious about. How, why and when that happened is intriguing.
View all comments by smitty
thanks for the observations, Smitty: from what i know of Korean and Japanese men, not an extreme example. very, very male-dominant societies. while this may sound positive in some respects, after you spend some time there it becomes nauseating. i could go on about this at length, but won’t.
as for why Japanese/Koreans are moving into traditionally farang areas, i think it’s natural evolution. the younger generation aren’t into the whole hostess-bar thing found on Soi Thaniya. younger Japanese are after all, guys, and they like Thai women and sex with Thai women just like we farangs do. some Thai women have learned that if they can learn a bit of the language and learn what these guys like, they can capture them in either Short Ball or Long Ball scenarios (kinda like those terms).
there are exceptions. there are Thai women who learn to speak Japanese very, very well and work that end of the market (a couple i’ve spoken with have traveled to Japan and worked there). and there are Japanese guys who are into BDSM, sometimes to an extreme degree. when i lived in Japan and saw some of the publications and flyers shoved under my door i got an idea of just how kinky *some* Japanese can be. i’ve get nothing against kink as long as it’s between consulting adults under whatever arrangement they choose to make. but i’ve had more than a few Thai women tell me they have had requests from Japanese guys they considered repulsive, and were clearly put off.
j
View all comments by Jack
I think you sell the Bangkok bar scene short including GoGo’s and Beerbars but especially FL TG’s.
It is not all about the economics if what you mean by economics is sex for money.
IMHO there is no hard line between women who are banging for money and those who are “doing it for love”. In The World, the women are banging for money just as much as the Biergarten FL.
In The World, Long Balling is for some reason considered more moral than Short Balling and admitting that your are Long Balling or Short Balling is met with two faced gasps of horror.
In the World as well as the Biergarten the women are looking for a BBD (that’s L.A. speak for Bigger Better Deal). The only differences are that the women in Thailand are a lot sexier than the women in The World and have had the misfortune to have been born into a worse socio-economics situation—neither of which they had any control over. Thai women start their lives in a worse situation but they are just looking for a better life using the same methods as the women in The World who IMHO falsely consider themselves morally superior the TG’s.
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
The whole “Asian treatment of women” issue might be a big factor for many intelligent, thoughtful and slightly older girls looking for husbands, but somehow I suspect that your average 18-20 year-old bar-girl is still thinking at a much more superficial level.
When a guy who looks a bit like ‘Bi Rain’ walks into the bar, I can guarantee that non of them are thinking “will he get up in the middle of the night to feed the baby?”. - They’re thinking “if I walk out of the bar on this guy’s arm I’m going to be the envy of almost every girl on the street.
Relatively few people in the West have the courage to go against the cultural pressures to conform placed upon them by their family and peers. I would have thought that this is even more true in the East.
View all comments by Tokyo Joe
BBK: i think we’re largely in agreement, in any case, agree with yr latest post. but of course, as those American car ads used to say: “your mileage may vary”…i’m a big fan of TG FLs and when i found one i liked (when i was living in BKK) i wd stay in touch with her. mostly it was: come over, let’s have fun, and after a few hours you’ll go one with yr life and i with mine. it was a great arrangement that i miss (there’s a lot about living in Thailand i DON’T miss, but no place is perfect). one FL i befriended seemed to have no inhibitions in private, so i once suggested we have sex on the balcony during a typical Bangkok thundershower. you couldn’t see the building across the trok (small soi) but she still balked, so i guess…well, that wasn’t regarded as “private” now was it?
one thing i wd caution everyone against is generalizing about Asian culture, and any blanket East vs West concepts. from my experience, there’s a great deal of diff depending on the locale. i live in Hong Kong where women are often in positions of power: in government, private enterprise, the police force, whatever. there’s more males in biz and more females dealing with kids, but other than that, not much fuss is made about gender-equality. very, very different from Japan. but city-states like Hong Kong and Singapore are islands of functionality and competence in their respective regions. u expect a more international level of standards, and u get it. these places are also value-added which means u pay more for just about everything.
but. Cambodian culture has a lot in common with Thai culture but don’t confuse the two: the recent histories of these countries has led them down different paths. Vietnam is another story. although i do feel it’s dangerous to generalize, in general, Asian cultures are more conservative and group-oriented than the west, and less hung up on political correctness and sexual correctness. not trying to yank anyone’s chain here, just stating what i’ve observed and read. that said, i think it’s a mistake to lump Asian cultures together. there’s a lot of territory, a lot of history and an awful lot of people.
and don’t underestimate Thai women, no matter what their socioeconomic level. they learn fast.
j
View all comments by Jack
Since 1996 I used to go the thermae for a late drink and female companionship. Great was my surprise when I went there last year. The place was packed with Japanese men and the women didn’t even pay attention to me nor to my friend. They were all focused on the Japanese customers. So we left after one drink. I understand it is mostly about the money but I think that the Japanese spoiled it for us with the prices they pay for LT or ST.
View all comments by hanuman
I find thermae to be pretty good right now and it is the best hanging outside right after they close. Buyers market.
View all comments by smitty
Thermae’s unofficially segregated now, or so it seems to me.
Front-half (towards the bar) for farangs, back half for Japanese. But yes, what a transformation over the past year or so.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Wow…..I haven’t read the blog for about two months and its taking a long long time to catch up. I made it out of the LOS’s and it wasn’t easy. I loved this blog because it always made me laugh and it had none of the bickering of MS. While i’m catching up I have noticed a lot of bickering creeping in. I guess thats as the blogs popularity has grown it’s kind of inevitable. Anyway just read Jacks comment about not grouping the Asian cultures togther. It’s a good one but I have never liked the way the Western cultures are grouped together under Farang. Coming from the UK I don’t even really think of us as European as where completely different than anywhere on the mainland and there all completely different too.
Smitty - had tears of laughter reading about your ping pong ball scam.
I usually go out with a very mixed group and find this always throws the girls off. A mix of Westerners (UK/USA), Japanese, Burmese and Thais’. The looks going into R4 are great. Where all smartly dressed young guys (mid 20’s). They are all so interested in what and why where together. Gets loads of attention. Then off to a club and the girls are driven in new cars as opposed to Taxi’s. I miss it but will be back soon.
Peace
View all comments by Young Royal
“I have never liked the way the Western cultures are grouped together under Farang” -> have never liked it either. Thais even put Russians in the category ‘farang’. Nothing against Russians but we definitely cannot say that Americans, for example, have much in common with them…
But actually, if you ask a middle-class Texan who has never been anywhere else “what is the capital city of Africa?”, my guess is he won’t see any problem except that he does not know the answer…
View all comments by ฝรั่งเศส
I to don’t like the grouping of “Farang”…Americans, British, Aussies, everyone is different however to be fair many foreigners, at least Americans, tend to group Asians as one. We know for sure there is a big difference between Japanese, Thai, Chinese, Singaporean, etc…so I think it goes both ways.
(I’m American and my less traveled friends do this all the time)
View all comments by bkk22
Yeah, generalization can go a long way. Earlier this year I had the chance to visit eastern Europe for the first time: Prague, and a short trip to Poland (Warsaw/Krakow). This is former Soviet-bloc territory that’s just now become part of the EU and is realizing that becoming like Western Europe is where the future lies. Fascinating, and I’d love a return visit, maybe next year.
BUT. Even though my phenotype (I’m American and my father’s from eastern Europe) was unexceptional, I was struck by how different phenotypes were in that part of the world. A lot of homogeneity (95% Caucasian) but not Anglo-American. Hard to explain until you travel there, but these were people from a culture foreign to me *and* Thais. Yet if they saw me and a Czech or Pole walking down the street, it would just be a couple of “farang.”
My favorite thing to do is to hang out with my friend Deputy Da