It all seems easy enough. Grab the visa run bus, pay your fees and try to sleep. Wake up at the first stop - shake out the back pain and head to the bathrooms for a piss. Pick up some snacks at the mini mart and get back on the bus. One of those cold towels out of the fridge is nice too. Sleep more. Wake up at the Cambodian border and do your thing. Dodge the little kids begging for money, try not to get run over by the carts full of stuff (what is in there anyway?) and line up to exit Thailand. Pray you did not overstay and then hand your passport over to the visa run folks. Go get some lunch - it is a crappy buffet just admit it - hang on the sofas until the visa run people say the passports are ready and you can line up to leave Cambodia. Fly back through Thailand immigration and joyfully board the bus. No drama. Done it a few times. What happens though if things don’t go so smoothly? What happens if you are not carrying a passport from a big western or European country? Shit happens.
One of my buddies did the visa run this past Saturday. At this point I will not divulge the name of the visa run company because I am awaiting there response to this and right now they are not saying much. Trying to make it look like it is not their problem and at this point I can’t argue with the premise but who can one turn to if the visa run company people can’t help? For sure they are doing deal with both the Thai and Cambodian immigration offices for purposes of providing a via run service.
My friend is an Indonesian with a valid passport. He also has a valid driver’s license for Nevada as well. He did not overstay and the Thais had no issues with his documents at all. However the Cambodians did not issue a visa and immediately accused him of having a fake passport. They pretended to use a special light to look at the passport and declare it forged. From my understand they did not try to call an Indonesian Embassy or Indonesian official to check the validity of the passport.
Of course we all know they are full of shit and want money but what can one do in this case? I frankly have no idea. I have never been hassled at the border but I suspect it is because I am American and they don’t want to deal with the repercussions of it all? Supposedly they claim to be seeing a raft of fake docs and are cracking down. Once again I think this is bullshit as well. The honest answer is times are tough and they need some extra cash.
My friend immediately offered up 500 baht hoping to end the situation. The Cambodian immigration officer has already dismissed the visa run company employee and brought more officers into the room. Using the old intimidation tactic for the squeeze job. My friend was not amused but now realized he was on his own. The officer laughed and said that given the severity of the situation 500 baht would not nearly cover it. So the standoff went on for a while and over a few hours it was negotiated that 5000 baht - all the money my friend had would be enough. I know this is not a gold mine but still it is too much and it is just plain wrong.
The visa company bus had already left at this point but there was someone from the company on hand to help my friend get back into Thailand and arrange a bus to get him home. I guess this is all they can do but if these guys cannot keep you from getting railroaded by the Cambodians then who can? Lately when I go on a visa run I take just enough cash to pay the visa run company and some extra baht for snacks. I no longer carry my credit cards or atm cards. That way if I get in a similar situation they have no way of shaking me down. I still suspect this hardly ever happens to people from big, prosperous countries but I have heard that other Asian countries are getting the shakedown.
I am still waiting for a proper response from the visa run company. They claim the Cambodians were doing their job and they are not aware of a payment. I will be sure to make them aware of the payment and that the Cambodians were exhorting - not doing their jobs.
Fun stuff. Welcome to SE Asia.
not ideal traveling on an indo passport. can’t say he deserves it. but, coming from one very corrupt country (thai)and traveling to another corrupt country (cambo) on a corrupt countries passport (indo) is less than ideal…he got off easy with 5k baht.
View all comments by Jack Spot
I recently did the same with a Pattaya-based visa run company (check out my story at http://blogfor.asia/siam-sunshine/post/1st-class-visa-runs.aspx). I was planning to do the run “on my own” so to speak, due to some of the scare stories around (and the fact that we had water pipe issues at home) I elected to use what I thought was a “safe” method, this story brings that opinion into suspicion.
Let’s hope the company involved get a response together pretty damn fast, if not name and shame them I say.
Siam Sunshine
View all comments by Siam Sunshine
“The visa company bus had already left at this point but there was someone from the company on hand to help my friend get back into Thailand and arrange a bus to get him home.”
BASED ON YOUR STATEMENT ABOVE I HOPE THAT YOU DO NOT PLAN TO PUBLICALLY USE YOUR BULLY PULPIT TO BLAST THE VISA RUN COMPANY ESPEICALLY IF THEY PAID FOR THAT BUS BACK TO BKK
View all comments by 8 Ball
js - still does not a make it right does it? What sucks is there is not much one can do but I think it scares the visa run companies a bit since it kind of wrecks there service.
ss - just not sure the visa run company can do much about this other than follow up on it and try to ask the official about the bribe money.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
8 ball - u read the post. did I blast them? I don’t think so but they are playing dumb a bit by saying that maybe it was a fake passport and pretending a bribe was not paid. I don’t think that is a good answer but I am waiting to see how they respond. They told me the guy who was at the border is having some days off and they would follow up with me. I am trying to believe them but most employees like this only get 1 day off a week and it has been 2 days already. Either way I have not blasted anyone and I am hoping they at least say something.
Let’s be clear. U and I both know they are paying someone at the border for this service. On the Cambodian and Thai side. So they are connected and they should be able to ask why their customers are getting hassled and why a customer had to pay a bribe for valid documents. I think this is a fair thing to want to know. All they did was help him get on a public bus. Not that big of a deal and somewhere south of 200 baht I think.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
8 ball - I will also add that I emailed the owner directly, I know him, and that I send A LOT of customers his way. If the people I send are getting a shakedown, Indo or not, I may have to re think my suggestions. So this is not a matter of trying to bully someone but good business. I can’t send my customers on a trip knowing they might get shook down. So following up on this is important to me.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
You are correct, it still does not make it right. However, the guy should probably lose his indo passport if he wants to travel the world…especially to these types of places. Visa runs can be a precarious business.
View all comments by Jack Spot
The visa run company might not be able to do anything *but* (didn’t you just know that was coming) the customer pays the fee in the (maybe misguided) belief that they are paying for a service, if the Visa run company can’t guarantee that the service is going to be hassle or ’shakedown’ free then they should make a point of saying so. 8Ball, there is no bullying as far as I can see, if a company isn’t living up to a customers expectations then that company deserves the spotlight. If the company in question had any suspicions that an Indo passport might have some grief then they should have done their level best to bring this to the customers attention, it’s called ’simple courtesy’ and ‘customer service’ where I come from.
You are free to disagree, but you know I’m right,
Siam Sunshine
View all comments by Siam Sunshine
Agreed, this kind of thing should not happen.
But do you honestly believe the visa run companies are willing to risk their contacts and to start making inquiries now? How long have you been living here?
They stir up too much crap and maybe make an official lose face, their business will be over. Not for everyone, but for that one particular company.
My 25 satang.
View all comments by rick
It’s a tough one.
On the one hand, you can’t exactly expect the visa company to kick up a shitstorm over bribes when their very existence as a business relies on them paying their own bribes in order to smooth the exit/entry process.
But on the other hand, if it’s the company I think it is, I’ve been boycotting them myself for the best part of a couple of years due to utter ineptitude and inability to answer questions. Sounds familiar.
Nasty situation either way. I like to think I’d have sat tight and dared them to charge me with the crime of possessing a fake passport, calling their bluff (assuming your friend’s passport was real!). In reality, I’d probably have caved and paid up.
Might be worth keeping the phone number of your country’s embassy/consulate in Cambodia in your cellphone, just in case.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
“caveat emptor” especially in corrupt 3rd world countries even if it is your friend who is participaing in a “visa run” that all know is not copletely legit he has to accept the risk even if he has “friends” who have the power to complain.
View all comments by 8 Ball
Of course the stupid thing is that you have to go through this hassle in the first place. You have a work permit, are running two businesses, employing Thai people, generating tax revenue and so on.
The ironic thing is that as a retiree who doesn’t do any of those positive things for the Thai economy I don’t have to do visa runs. I have to report my address every 90 days. I can do that in Bangkok in less than an hour or legally pay someone else to do the whole thing for me.
Ah well, This is Thailand. I still love it.
View all comments by Arthur
Gee, I gotta agree with 8 Ball. Caveat Emptor says it all.
I even check my change at the Mango even though the owners promise me a pint of Tiger for 89 baht during Happy Hour
View all comments by Midland
bbb’s got a good point, the mobile reception is certainly okay there. although many immigrations ban mobile phone use. as for me, i prefer the bus from morchit plus songtew option.
View all comments by Mr Carpet
8ball - “participaing in a “visa run” that all know is not copletely legit”
What is not completely legit in a visa run?
Arthur - you could report your address by post too!
“You have a work permit, are running two businesses, employing Thai people, generating…” Well someone holding a work permit could apply for an extension of stay and avoid visa runs as well. Would have to earn at least THB 40K/month though.
View all comments by mart
“Would have to earn at least THB 40K/month though.”
I think the figure depends on your nationality - Americans and Japanese have it the worst. And any such earnings need to have been taxed as well. Then there’s the whole minimum number of Thai employees hassle. Can be a bit of a pain, although doesn’t sound nearly as bad as having to do visa runs.
View all comments by generous sponsor
sponsor - as far as I know, the minimum number of Thai employees hassle applies to the issuance of a work permit, not to the issuance of an extension of stay…
View all comments by mart
sponsor - A work permit is to be applied for by a company whereas an extension of stay is to be applied for by a work permit holding individual.
View all comments by mart
errrm, “by an individual holding a work permit”, sorry for the German syntax…
View all comments by mart
8Ball: you make quite a few presumptions and right out of the gate accuse ssB of strong arming. Not sure why the attitude but maybe you can drop it long enough to prove up your point.
Specifically, on what authority are you speaking when you make the claim, “your friend who is participaing in a “visa run” that all know is not copletely legit”
Maybe you believe it’s not legit, but as far as I know there are several services that don’t break Thai, Cambodian or Lao law and are completely legit. Maybe you’re thinking of the time when one simply handed over their passport to the Visa run company all the while that person would stay in Thailand and pick up their passport the next day with all stamps properly affixed? That’s not what happened here.
Generally speaking these links are in consensus with what the majority of legal firms say concerning visas and passport stamps:
http://www.retire-asia.com/visathai.shtml
http://www.thailandlaw.com/bizimmlaw.html
There is nothing mentioned about a minimum amount of time one must spend outside the country before returning. It would seem that something as prominent as a minimum exit period (8 hours, 12 hours, 1 day…) before re-entry would be mentioned on at least one of the websites of these firms that specifically deal with visa/immigration issues.
The service being provided here is low cost expedited processing. One doesn’t have to spend 300 dollars to fly out of the country, stand in any queues or stay in a hotel for a day before returning to Thailand.
Most of these services work in a similar manner: The passports, photos and any paperwork is collected by a representative of the company conducting the visa run service. Once at the border nobody is required to stand in the queue. The group’s paperwork and passports are given top priority by immigration officials and processed while you enjoy the delicious buffet (ssB, you must always do your run after a major bender and the food has that camel shat in your mouth taste). In most instances, there are no problems with any of the passports and the group is rounded up and upon re-entry, everyone is again given expedited VIP processing.
If this wasn’t legit, as you claim, then it would be reasonable to expect that some point someone would get nabbed leaving the country through the airport or during the course of making another “run” on their own and someone not in on the take wanting to impress their boss would catch the bad foreign national just before he escaped the country. Interestingly, I have yet to hear of this happening.
What did happen here is someone in the Cambodian immigration department needed some extra cash and for some reason an Indonesian passport stood out from all the others. So the shakedown took place.
On a side note concerning the corruption: So the immigration guys at the Thai-Cambodia boarder are given a few extra notes to expedite the processing. Big deal. The difference between Asian governments and those of the western world is the governments of the western world have legitimized much of the corruption and extortion. It happens more frequently and on a much larger scale through legislation, closed bidding and procurement processes which allow for such things as $10k hammers and producing specifications that the government insiders know ahead of time that only certain manufacturers will be able to meet the specs.
Money is extorted at an impersonal level through the collection of taxes in the west whereas in Asia (and as recounted in ssB’s post) the incidents of extortion are experienced much more personally.
View all comments by Bubba
My view on this is the visa run company is providing a service and in this case they did not pass muster. They should refund the guy’s money, apologize and possibly try to look into it. This does not look good for their business.
The guy is a highly skilled and educated technician working in thailand. There are many guys like this here that come from certain countries and work in others. Since Thailand has no easy way to offer temporary employment visas these guys are forced by Thailand to make stupid visa runs. This is dumb on Thailand’s part and is part of the reason THailand is in the technical backwater of SE Asia. They should fix this. So this guy did what any one of us would do. Take a visa run and he got scammed. I think if this were my company I would refund the guy’s money and apologize. Enuff said.
Every time though I bring any of this stuff up people chime in about us taking visa runs. It would not be prudent for me to discuss that here but let’s just say Thailand is not a good place to start businesses. It is bent towards established companies and traditional setups. We do everything by the book. We have lawyers and accountants. We have work permits and we pay taxes. Cool? The issue is there are a lot of rules around all this. How many employees, how much taxes and harder things like capital ratios,deferred revenue and deferred expenses. Based on all this we don’t quite meet all the hurdles for getting a 1 year stay. To get the 1 year stay basically is not worth it when compared to simply making a visa run. Pretty simple math.
None of this is really pertinent to the post though IMHO.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
ssB Interesting ! Thats interesting and it seems the Thais are paranoid about Farang working in the Kingdom. How do people get short term or temporary work visa’s if they are bought in as required in technical or support roles ?
I am guessing they just use a tourist Visa ?
View all comments by JD
mart- yes, the thai employee number is required to get the work permit, however, you’ll need the work permit to get a one year extension to the visa. crazy stuff.
it’s like sideshow says - there are quite a few hurdles and the government doesn’t make it easy so in many cases it’s not worth getting the visa extension. people who actually bother with getting a long term visa then need to worry about the 90 day reporting rule - the whole system seems geared to having foreigners slip up so they have to pay fines (i know, a major revelation).
View all comments by generous sponsor
JD - you can get a 15-day temporary work permit, which is effectively a stamp in your passport. the only ones who seem to bother with it though are the hollywood crews coming over for a shoot. fascinating blog material, i know.
View all comments by generous sponsor
jd - the temp visa or work permit is usually too short for most projects.
gs - amen.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
The Visa company should be outraged imho and should be looking to bust the scummy little border weasels as much as they possibly can. The scum were wrong and are extremely vulnerable and should be reported and fired so it doesn’t happen again. The individual should also pursue reporting this scum to the Thai government officials. Hopefully this will happen. If it was me I would spend whatever it cost to rip them a new asshole because that’s what they deserve. Would make a great story too.
View all comments by pmmp
ssB & JD - I’ve obtained “courtesy visas” for a few musicians this year (good news: they’re for free). It was the first time I went this way. Always tourist visas before that but it is illegal technically.
Non-imm B valid for one entry are quite easy to obtain when applying from Europe but it still is technically illegal to let people work on such a visa solely. To be honest, there is no way around this problem and the Thai govt does not seem to care much about it. So you have to be at least half illegal or just forget about Thailand…
View all comments by mart
I empathise with your friend Sideshow - I am British but being a black guy with Nigerian and Jamaica visa stamps leads to extra checks at borders, with America being a noteworthy exception btw. To be honest I don’t think there’s much the visa company can do to prevent rogue customs agents shaking people down. This kind of stuff is fairly routine for people who are not white or not travelling with passports from wealthy western countries, and I say this with no prejudice. That’s racism for you - with a nice bit of corruption thrown in.
View all comments by milo
@ Milo - yep, I came to BKK three years ago with my black girlfriend of the time - while it was obvious we were together, her luggage got searched while I and my luggage (standing right next to her) were ignored.
Who remembers Blue Mink’s song ‘Melting Pot’ - not in our lifetime obviously….
View all comments by doctorbond
Wouldn’t you wait for at least 2 or 3 similar cases before making it a rule and calling it a scam???
View all comments by Suk Psycho
a one-off scam maybe?
Alleging that a valid passport is a fake one in order to get tea money from its holder IS a scam, it doesn’t matter if it happens only once or not…
View all comments by mart
If a company ain’t delivering what you paid for then they should be made to account. Isn’t that how business goes? Paying bribes in SEA is the done thing, but not when those bribes have supposedly already been taken care of.
I’d go on a rant about legimate business people working in LOS and making a contribution to the Thai economy and having to jump through so many hoops and go on visa runs being outrageous and one of the key reasons the Thai economy will continue to “mire in mediocrity”, but I’m from Australia and just to get back in here after being away I have to submit a urine, stool and semen sample at customs for analysis(usually I just hand over a pair of soiled underpants). In comparison, I’ve never been hassled at customs in Thailand (so far…) and the visa rules seem pretty relaxed - if not completely uncomplicated.
View all comments by rootrat
can i ask a dumb question? where was that picture taken. doesnt look like poipet or moc bai. gotta love those boarder towns.
View all comments by Mr Carpet
I just hope it wasn’t Jack Golf. There is only one Visa run company consistently recommended everywhere, and in the past going with anyone else you deserved what you got (hassles, shakedowns, crap transport). If it turns out to be Jack Golf, we are in many ways stuffed as it takes a long time to judge the reliability of this sort of service.
Please name and shame even if it is resolved - one of the reasons you get on the bus is so shit like this doesn’t happen in the first place. You are paying for their experience in getting everything in order so there can be no disputes and you are aware of anything unusual before the bus leaves in the morning. Checking for overstay and ensuring you have required cash, watching for people with no remaining 30 day entry stamps using whatever rules are applied at that particular border etc. You are also paying to go with someone pushing enough people across the border that it is more profitable to give no hassles than to shake down a passenger occasionally.
I suspect no direct bribes are paid to the border guards by the big runners. I do suspect that that crappy and probably overpriced buffet was chosen because the casino manager’s brother is the head immigration official at the border or some similar incestuous situation.
View all comments by Cabby
JD - I don’t think the laws are from paranoia about farang working in Thailand (the laws are old, and farang paranoia is a recent phenomena triggered by western media). The laws are targeted at the local neighbors, both to stop people coming in and taking Thai jobs and to put a tight leash on the cases they choose to turn a blind eye too. Farang are just caught in the fallout.
View all comments by Cabby
Very strange. If his passport was valid and he didn’t overstay then he shouldn’t have paid anything because there’s nothing wrong.
The companies I used years ago always methodically checked everyone’s passport before we left Bangkok to ensure you hadn’t exceeded the maximum stay in Thailand - but of course if a passport is forged or invalid then it’s not their problem.
View all comments by Mark Lamerton
Its so upsetting that the weakest are picked on even though it seems obvious. The Thais who ride motorbikes are much poorer then the one who have a Merc but guess who the Police stop more. Same with business owners. The bigger you are the less shit you get for: The ta people, police, health and saftey etc etc. And if your passport isnt 1st world……
View all comments by markthepoint
mr carpet - came up in a google search for gary glitter
cabby - I won’t comment yet. still doing emails. Agreed though one uses the services hoping for some level of care and safety. The visa run company is basically saying that if the cambos thought it was fake than it probably was and then not their business. I think this is a wrong attitude to take. I am assured it is a valid passport and the cambos never checked with the indonesians at all.
ml - agreed. hence why I wrote the post to begin with.
zuckerberg - so true.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
So was it Poipet (Aranyaphatet) or one of the other border crossings in Cambodia?
There was a funny story about Gary Glitter this week missing his connection to the U.K. in Bangkok after being extradited from Vietnam after being released from prison after three years for sex with young girls who happened to be minors. He was requesting hospitalization for an illness. I guess he’s not looking forward to being repatriotized in Britain where he has a record for child pornography. But the efficient Thai immigration officials put him on the next available flight to Heathrow.
View all comments by kwai mai sabai
Actually he is still in the bkk airport since he tried to go to hk and them sent him back to bkk. He wants into thailand and they say no. Which is the right thing for thailand to do. Still wonder where he will end up. Maybe he will live in the airport. The border was pp.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
Sounds to me like a one-off case of racism and exploitation of the weakest. I doubt if it will spiral into a big problem but well done for exposing it.
View all comments by jepmak
I smell a trade in the offing. Perhaps the UK could negotiate a trade with Thailand… Thaksin for Glitter and a few future draft picks to be named at a later date?
View all comments by Rene Descartes
Hey gents, quite a few lenthy posts. So here is mine. I saw one nugget of wisdom in amongst lots of good (and not so good advice). The nugget was to keep your embassy or consulate phone number handy. An even better idea is to make friends with someone who works in the consular section there to have a name to name and an advocate to call. Having this for both countries involved in the visa run would be smart, although difficult.
A few years ago I was assigned to the US Embassy. My Thai sister-in-law tried to take the bus down to KL to visit us. The Malaysians tried to shake her down, but all it took was a threat to call me at the US Embassy (the big country theory in play) and they backed down.
My wife’s cousin was our live-in maid there, and she was shaken down once by an nice scam. At the Thai checkpoint they stamped her visa, but used the wrong date. At the Malaysian checkpoint they noted the date was wrong, and sent her back to the Thai checkpoint (more than a mile away). But the bus driver left while she was arguing and there was no one to give her a ride back to the Thai checkpoint for less than TB1000. So the scam is that the two checkpoints and the border taxi and the bus driver were all in it together (or was there actually an honest mistake? ;-P ). There is no end to their ingenuity and cooperation when it comes to ripping off the little guy/gal through corruption.
View all comments by Tunafisher
This won’t be the first time this has happened so you have to wonder who else has had to cross palms with silver at borders.
View all comments by vance
Come on SSB, name and shame, surely they’ve had more than enough time to resolve this to everyone’s satisfacton.
Siam Sunshine.
View all comments by Siam Sunshine
ss - this was not about name and shame more than it was about highlighting the issue and seeing what people thought about it ans also seeking a decent response from visa company.
The visa company is not doing much though.
There line is it must be the fault of the person. They are denying payments were made and they see this as not their issue. Maybe they are right but I think they could try harder. They should refund the money in my opinion at the very least.
Still waiting for some more email followup. Either way I was going to say who it was a print their response to it. Good or bad. I think this is fair.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
Is it only me that thinks that the Indonesian government might be the right organization to deal with this problem? If the guy was carrying a valid passport it seems that one reasonable course of action would be to go to his Embassy with his story and ask for assistance.
View all comments by Werewolf
The visa run co. might not know if the passport was real, but their response is unreasonable. Either the passport was a fake, in whcih case a bribe must have been paid to get back into Thailand. Or the passport was real in which case an attempted shake-down must have happened because he was detained for seveal hours and missed the bus. But getting a refund for poor service, in Thailand? Good luck with that.
View all comments by vlad the inhailer
It was a shake-down because Smitty already said the passport was real. My American friend once paid 200 baht on the Khmer side at this particular crossing while I didn’t have to pay anything with my Canadian passport. Go figure.
The Indonesian guy should try a different exit/re-entry point. By land there’s another one I have used south-east of Pattaya at Pong Nam Ron and Daung in Cambodia. It is about the same distance as Aranyaprathet.
Or if you fly to Singapore and back it costs more but there is definitely no scams at airport immigration.
View all comments by kwai mai sabai
it was a shakedown. that much is true.
I was more looking for other people’s experience and was hoping the visa run company would share some knowledge or explain their thoughts. Instead they assume the passport is bad, assume the customer is lying and even go so far as to say it is the customer’s fault. Such a shitty attitude.
I will write the follow up, name the company and explain why I think companies like this - whether it is their fault or not could do a better job on the whole.
View all comments by sideshowBOB