I wrote my bkk in a funk post a bit back. Seems things are not getting much better with the baht now at its lowest in 5 months but hey - maybe this will bring in the tourists? Well - not if it did not look like the government was getting ousted again. I have said it many times - Samak is a lunatic and needs to go. Looks like that is happening which will probably lower the possibility of a coup but I love how the brother in law of Thaksin is rumored to be Samak’s replacement. Thai rak Thai lives again. Nice. I love this though:
Sources said Samak was very annoyed with the police, who failed to prevent the PAD from surrounding the heart of his administration.
I am sure the police had marching orders from someone other than Samak. Go figure.
So it looks like a coup has been pushed off for a bit but I don’t think the turmoil is over. Just another day here but the stock market popped on the lack of violence. Such a calming effect.
Of course I guess I would rather be here than in the US. It is not just about the women but life looks crazy expensive in places like America these days. People are having to pass up their morning coffee to fill up the gas tank instead.
It’s tough being a barrista these days. A survey by Kelley Blue Book finds more than one in four people have given Starbucks the heave-ho because they need the money to buy gas. Another 21 percent said they’re sucking down fewer caramel jambachinos to keep the car going.
Well - I never go to starbucksisoverpriced these days unless someone else is buying but I get the pain though - the cost of gas is just over the moon now. General inflation is way up in Thailand but I don’t drive so in some ways I do not think about it much. Either way though the lifestyles of middle America are clearly changing due to the price at the pump.
Jake stopped in the other day to formally bless the bar. He even tossed me a few harem tips. It seems he just came back from a book fair in Los Angeles and happened to sit down for lunch next to Hugh Hefner. My hero. Anyway - my harem is all but over at the moment and I am in re-building mode.
Back to the Big Mango, business been steady and lots of action around the Euro. Today we got our first food delivery and we are starting to finalize and test the menu. Watch soon for announcements on when the kitchen will formally open and the finalized date for the grand opening. Soon…
Good - lets hope it plummets so low that by the time I get there everything is half the price it was in the spring - with of course the exceptions of the Mango and Duke which somehow do outstanding business at very high margins.
View all comments by doctorbond
“I never go to starbucksisoverpriced these days unless someone else is buying ”
- That also goes for the Duke, Mango, Nana Plaza…..
View all comments by Day Walker
If i had 1 day to live and was armed with infinite bullets, i wouldnt head straight to sukhumvit soi3, id head straight to starbucks and blow the latte swigging, broadhsheet reading douchbag ponces straight to hell
View all comments by Young Penfold
One of the “thefarangspends2much” guys complaining about the cost of Starbucks.
I like that.
That’s funny.
Actually, in fairness, is The Pent closed? I no longer see weekly reports about 10,000 baht nights and numbers being bagged? What’s up with that?
A country led by a “lunatic”. Oh you mean this one? For a minute there I thought you were writing about the USA.
I’d like to take this opportunity to give a big shout out to the new Nana Square Burger King. How GREAT is that?
And also to note that the new owners of that lot on Soi 6 Sukumvit have wasted NO time in starting to clear their property. Do we have any early intelligence on what’s going up there? Ears to the ground guys.
View all comments by jack dawson
The price for a “short moka - hot - no cream - yes, for here - no, I don’t want a double chocolate/coconut/almond cookie, thanks” has raised up from THB 85 to THB 90!
Soon this will be barfine and ST prices that will be raised.
Now, talk about a nightmare here!
View all comments by Suk Psycho
YP:… calm down sunshine. In a full day armed with infinite bullets, there is plenty of time to visit soi 3.
Maybe straight after a bit of carrott cake a drink from a freshly severed head in Starbucks?
Youngsters of today are in such a rush.
View all comments by Day Walker
In the last few days, this excerpt from the Bangkok Post is the most intelligent (and perhaps the only intelligent) thing I’ve read in the newspapers about the current political situation:
View all comments by werewolf
Mr. Werewolf, my thanks for that moment of sanity.
I read today that Chamlong said that the PAD absolutely would not “negotiate” with the government. Good Lord, this self-anointed spokesman for democracy, this half-witted tin-horn prophet, announces that his street mob won’t “negotiate” with a properly elected government and the local English-language press continues to breathlessly report the triumphs of his crusade for democracy?
This pathetic little country is a joke, but of course that doesn’t particularly matter. Outside its borders, and frequently within them, no one really gives a shit what happens to Thailand since there is no more insignificant a place on the face of the earth.
View all comments by Old Asia Hand
Old Asia Hand - if you hate the place so much, why do you live here?
View all comments by Young Penfold
The constant love-it-or-leave-it bullshit flung at anyone who criticizes wonderful little Thailand is really unique to the kind of foreigners who are attracted to this place. That kind of nonsense hasn’t been spouted by anyone in, say, the US since…oh, about Barry Goldwater.
In my experience, most of us are the sum of our obligations, not our appetites. We live where we do for a number of reasons, most of them serious. Few people have the luxury of living their lives in exactly the place they’d most like to be. For example, just think of all those poor stiffs in Cleveland. What do you reckon they’d say to someone naive enough to ask them why they live there if they don’t really love it?
But then, I almost forgot. According to a recent post on this blog, the best thing about Thailand is “pussy” and, according to darn near every other posting on this blog, paying for pussy is the reason almost every foreigner is here.
Damn. That may actually be true……
View all comments by Old Asia Hand
I keep on blathering about this but there’s too much focus on the price of oil/gas/gasoline. What’s scary is that everything ELSE is hitting record highs at the same time.
Starbucks getting cold-cocked is the first good result I’ve heard from high gas prices. My car gets 13 mpg if I’m lucky so it’s good I walk to work.
Good luck guys, hope the weaker baht/stronger dollar helps a bit.
View all comments by tosh
I love all this talk about “democracy” in Thailand. Every PPP vote in isaan was bought and paid for with cash or goods. Thai democracy is nothing more than who can distribute the most cash and favors. makes chicago elections look fair and square. samak and squarehead, a murderer, need to go to prison where they belong.
View all comments by angryirishman
angryirishman: You beat me to it. Sorry ww and oah but “properly elected government”. No way dudes.
View all comments by pmmp
OAH - have you ever thought that maybe you get the “constant love-it-or-leave-it bullshit” flung at you because you never have anything positive to say about Thailand? Let’s see, in your last couple of comments you’ve described Thailand as such…”there is no more insignificant a place on the face of the earth” and “crummy little country”. Seriously, why are you here if it sucks so bad? Or do you even live here? Let’s hear your top 10 list of things you love about Thailand.
View all comments by khunron
so your answer is that 10,000 (or 100,000 depending on who’s reporting) people assembling and making noise is the answer to what ails Thailand?
(My second favorite quote yesterday was also from the Bangkok Post: “”A PAD leader said he expected 400,000 demonstrators by Friday afternoon. An estimated 10,000 showed up.”)
There are 60+ million people here. I don’t particularly care whether they have a democracy or not (unlike most American citizens, I don’t think a democratic republic is the best form of government for everyone).
However, I find it hard to understand what you can argue with in the statement from K. Thitinan about the current state of Thai democracy, which he says in a bad way. A tiny minority of the people, by actively marching in the street, are being declared ‘vicrotious’ by the vast majority of jounalists in the two major English language newspapers that I have read, for doing nothing more than walking a few blocks then going to sleep.
The “elected government” is under pressure, but still in place. Given that they are under attack by a variety of legal systematic processes which include the Election Commission, the Supreme Court and a censure motion in the Senate I’m not sure what your complaint is about the legitimacy of the government. What’s happening within the legal processes in Thailand is what would happen in any country: due process of law is underway, just as it would be in the US.
Under the laws of Thailand, the current government is legitimate, but forced to defend itself from allegations of wrongdoing. If it’s not able to defend itself effectively, then under the law a new election will be held. Until that time, whether you like it or not, the current coalition is the “elected government”.
Sorry pmmmp, but the word “properly” actually wasn’t linked to the words “elected government” in the quote.
The election was held. It was overseen by the Election Commission of the country. The results were certified. Once again the rural people of Thailand, who outnumber the Bangkok business power elite, voted in a populist party that lined their pockets. In the US it’s pork-barreling — here it may go by another name. The fact is — and it is a FACT — the current government was elected and certified under the laws of Thailand.
The fact is that about 5 months into its term, the stability of the country is under threat due to the tensions being created by a group of people (the PAD) who, for the second time, have no real agenda except to force the dissolution of the elected government.
What do you want to replace it with? That small cadre of idiots who called themselves the CNS and set Thailand back a decade with their idiotic policies and lack of direction?
Or do you want another election in the name of democracy?
A return to the good old days of absolute monarchy?
Personally, I don’t much care how the government of the country is chosen… they can play rock, paper, scissors or else leave it to a coin toss as far as I’m concerned. I’m not overly concerned if elections are simple bribery — I reckon I’d rather see the money go straight into the hands of the voters instead of the spend-fest on advertising, soundbites and ‘local projects’ that marks American elections. Or just let the King and the Privy Council take control.
But the PAD offers no solutions.
The PAD seems intent on destruction, regardless of the cost to the country. I admire people who have the strength of convictions and who take action, but that action has to be linked to a positive programs with achievable outcomes. The PAD took to the streets initially to stop the amendments to the constitution. When that outcome was achieved, they didn’t miss a beat, but revised the target to “we won’t stop protesting until the current government resigns… no negotiation.”
When the censure motion was brought in the Senate this week, the PAD didn’t step back to see what the political process would bring, they increased the stakes by physically moving their protest to Government House.
If you can tell me what positive, constructive plan the PAD supports to replace the current system of selecting a government (which you tell me is broken) then I’ll buy you a beer next time I see you. The PAD has done such a good job painting a target on whoever happens to be Prime Minister on the day, that everyone is forgetting to ask them what they’ll do to improve things when they get what they want. Instead, it’s simply a divisive argument over an individual, instead a cohesive or coherent discussion about the system.
We can all see what a brilliant outcome we got from the street protests in 2005-06. If you don’t like the outcome of the last three elections, then what do YOU think about Thai democracy, and what should be the plan going forward?
Sorry pmmmp and angryirishman, but I agree with K. Thitinan that the negative power of this relatively small group of people calling themselves the PAD ‘bodes ill for Thai democracy’.
It’s a freaking mess.
View all comments by werewolf
So the PAD are the democracy police, Now there buddy the MUSIC police are out in force tonight too.. 1 bar for sure got fined on soi 4 and others just got looked in on.
Screw the politics , Just dont mess with my tunes.. :twisted
View all comments by Jboy.bkk
$4 gas is awesome. Still cheaper than what Europeans pay. Americans are the most supply/demand driven consumers in the world so the only way they’ll change their habits is through price changes. It’s great to see how $4 gas is finally having an actual impact on miles driven in the US. This country is obsessed with driving. Cheap driving has among other things led to the sprawling cities with auto-friendly downtowns (meaning people-unfriendly) and empty looking suburbs with no sidewalks. I personally welcome $4 gas.
Oh and by the way, when adjusted for inflation, car prices have actually dropped over the last decades so much so that the total cost of driving is not really higher today than it was a couple of decades ago. Add to that the increase in income and you’ll see that cost of driving as share of income has decreased over the years. No reason to complain.
I second tosh’s comment: What we should really worry about is food price increases that create problems in the developing world and the general hoarding of natural resources of all kinds which I think is the most likely cause of a serious world-wide armed conflict in the future.
View all comments by JinSF
Anyone care to name a truly Democratic Country??? IMHO there are only Republics but no Democracies.
Tosh - Peak GOGO?
Hugh - very nice………..bombing poor people well done???
“Get rid of the whores that serve them” Now that’s funny!
View all comments by Young Royal
@ OAH “The constant love-it-or-leave-it bullshit flung at anyone who criticizes wonderful little Thailand is really unique to the kind of foreigners who are attracted to this place”
Really? Then I suggest you don’t get out much. I’ve heard it said about foreigners that come to live in the UK and then complain about it - the response is the same… if you hate it so much why do you stay? I’ve heard it in the workplace.. if you hate this job so much why don’t you get another one? The subtext is “either change what you do or stop bellyaching about it”
The idea that you think this is ‘unique’ is unique in itself - it is quite a reasonable response and much more common than you seem to believe.
Patient: “It hurts when I do this” Doctor: “Then don’t do it”
View all comments by doctorbond
YR - Oh the humanity! Peak go-go! Imagine the whinging on expat blogs, ‘She wanted USD 120 for short time, that’s a pair of shoes back home.’
JinSF - In general I agree with you, with one exception. I live in a part of the US that is very urban, with pretty decent public transportation and services. I can walk to work and pick up groceries on the way home. That said, I GREW UP in a plains state where a lot of people had a 15 mile drive to buy a quart of milk. For those people $4 gas is a genuine hardship and there isn’t much they can do about it. I still say the best way to deal with this is to ruinously tax people (like me) who drive fuel inefficient cars. Also, Europe doesn’t have plains states.
OK, I have to go sit down and shake in fear for a bit about the possibility of peak go-go . . .
View all comments by tosh
Wake Up
Bang my BEAUTIFUL Graduate School Uni-Girl Friend
Have nice breakfast
Read newspaper
Go shoot some pool
Have nice lunch and cocktail
Go home wait for Unit girl
Bank Uni-girlfriend
Have dinner
Go out till 2300 while she studies
Maybe find something of high quality on the side
Come home, bang Uni-girlfrined
Go to sleep
Start all over again
and wait for weekend to go to the beachouse
At 66 years old I got no gripes about Thailand or $4.00 gasoline
View all comments by midland
my biggest take away from all this is that wherever WW is staying the p4p action is possibly non-existent.
All that aside - both sides are really messed up here so I don’t see how anyone can point a finger. The biggest force at work here I won’t touch on but let’s face it. How can any form of democracy take root given who really runs this place?
enough said.
I think unless I am wrong I always mention that with inflation I am not just talking oil. Thailand is hitting it in all categories.
Taxis should be going up over the next few days. Essentially doubling their prices since the flag fall will get you 1 km and there after it is a 1 km measure versus a 2. Ouch.
View all comments by smitty
Democracy. As someone who spent the early 90’s in Eastern Europe, I can tell you nothing went to shit as fast as this notion. Such a great concept. But, if 50% of a country is rural; has no way of sustaining itself; has no education to speak of; heck, is lucky to have electricity. In these circumstances, you expect the poor buggers to vote? To elect, in any meaningful fashion? Actually sit down and think who has the best policies? No way. They will do whatever it takes to get the cashback. From whoever provides it. Democracy is a nice concept for the moneyed middle classes to talk about (and enjoy). In places like Poznan; Ceske Budejowice; Chiang Rai; Phnom Penh, it has little meaning. People need to have a certain living standard assured before they can vote. It is such a basic truth, yet misunderstood by the ‘democratic’ world.
View all comments by Julian
@Julian: Spot on. angryirishman also called it.
Sorry WW, but that word “democracy” that you mention doesn’t exist here. Thai democracy is merely the rich guy buying votes from the desperate and the needy. And when the rich guy has the blood of the people on his hands, you’ve got a problem.
Sure, the PAD may not be paragons of virtue either, but they’re a damn sight more palatable than TRT/PPP. Killed less people, anyhow.
I’m sure that when Samak is gone, his replacement will be equally odious though, so you do begin to wonder whether there’s even a point…
On the taxi fares issue, the current meter price has actually been frozen for over a decade, so I think it’s perfectly reasonable for them to increase it. Still cheap as hell when you consider how much it costs to get a cab across London!
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Tourism is down because people are tired of being scammed, cheated, overcharged, ripped off, everywhere they go. It gets old.
The word is out.
View all comments by keith
BBB: on which point exactly do you think that you and I disagree, except perhaps for your odd statement that the PAD is more palatable than TRT/PPP?
Again, what positive program about the future of the country does the PAD put forward? The PAD have demonstrated no ability to run a government; only the ability to organize street protests.
For the rest of it, I thought that the items you mentioned were my points exactly.
Democracy doesn’t exist here in the way it does in the US, UK, Australia, etc. It seems clear that replacing one leader with another hasn’t and won’t change the way business is done here. One begins to wonder if there’s even a point. They political system here doesn’t work.
“It bodes ill for Thai democracy….”
The government is fucked up, just the way we like it, right? Nobody who wants to live in Bangkok would rather live in Singapore.
View all comments by werewolf
@Smitty - just to clarify, now that I’m done worrying about peak go-go, I wasn’t critiquing you about the oil thing. But look at this thread, almost all of it that is referencing ‘inflation’ is about fuel costs. That’s what gets the press, but if one follows those markets energy costs are just one part of a much, much larger trend. My group is religiously anti-commodity, so we’ve either not made money on this or lost it hedging out the exposure. We’re real morons sometimes.
View all comments by tosh
@ WW - Complete inability to manage the economy and just about everything else is the reason that PAD are getting airtime. PAD do NOT want to run the Country, hence not putting forward any plans to do so, the issue here is a corrupt government and worse an ineffectual corrupt government.
@ Old Asia Handjob - you have a jaded, myopic point of view that there is a fanatic ferang element that is emotionally attached, beyond reason, to Thailand. Time to take off the blinkers old man. Whilst we all have obligations, most of us perhaps serious obligations, such as family, work and commitments to others; do we not also have an obligation to be gracious to our hosts? When I visit another mans house I may debate within him, I may disagree with him, but I would not ridicule, insult or deride him, at least not until he did so to me and especially not in his home.
We are not blind to the faults of where we live but I would, for example, rather be a Muslim in Thailand, than Chinese in Jakarta or KL, or a Catholic in Vietnam or a Buddhist in Tibet.
Regarding Maj. Gen Chamlong; this man has stood before the guns before, that is not some metaphorical statement - that is fact. I doubt that Maj. Gen. Chamlong and I would get on - we probably wouldn’t be drinking buddies, especially since he doesn’t drink alcohol, however, having watched his courageous stance against another would be dictator I wouldn’t call him half-witted either. The issue at hand is that of corruption - when the courts, judicial process and just about every other check or balance has gone - what is left? Perhaps you forget, or maybe you don’t know, but Chamlong was once Prem’s secretary
As John Wayne, the last great American :-), put it, “The problem with sitting on a high horse is that it hurts more when you fall off.”
@ Keith - No they aren’t - no it isn’t.
View all comments by psi100th
Thousands of professional scammers deployed around town and this has no effect on tourism/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21533131@N06/
View all comments by keith
I agree. The Tourist Mafia has plans to cheat EVERY visitor they can.
They are EVERYWHERE!
View all comments by khun j
I love all the serious debate about the politics of Thailand even though I think most farang have little or no idea how the country (or indeed their home country) is really run and by whom (I certainly do not claim to).
Democracy is a middle class idea - for individuals to vote on the basis of an analysis of issues and potential policies they need to have sufficient wealth that the level of bribe that a candidate can afford to offer is too low to influence their vote. They also need the time and inclination to analyse issues and policies.
In my view, while I accept Churchill’s comment that democracy stinks but less so than any other system of government, I think it is dying as a real concept.
In the US, UK or other western “democracies” the bribe comes in a less direct form than in many newer “democracies”, and the cost for the candidate is higher (look at how much the candidates have spent in the US just to become the candidate) but that must mean the expected payback for the candidate is also higher - see for example, Chaney.
As the issues facing the multitudes across the globe move to ones where simple economics no longer suffices eg lack of clean air, water etc. and start to negatively impact on the “big men” I think we will see dictatorships spring up where the majority really only live to serve the minority. This is a throw back to earlier times when only a few got to vote, but maybe Thailand is leading the way rather than following as most of us suspect.
Either way, all this is much too hard for anyone on this blog to fix so we should concentrate on what we are good at - sex, drugs and rock’n'roll. On those issues, Thailand does pretty well.
View all comments by Not in Paradise
All interesting stuff folks. but I tire of people saying we cannot talk about this stuff on the blog. We can, we will and it will continue. I have businesses here and the politics has a huge impact on business here. So I like talking about it and learning about it.
I also like the lifestyle here, the girls, the food and the entire package.
So yes - I may go to a member club or a go-go bar but I also talk about the politics. Why is that a big issue?
We used to have a good friend who was up there in the American Military and at the same time very connected with some of the big Thai generals since he was half american and half thai. Many a time he would recount that he was called to meet with a particular group of Thai military guys in a special VIP room of an expensive member club. He recalls many a serious conversation took place in a big hot tub full of girls and booze.
So the powers that be mix their politics, women and booze - I will do the same. Deal.
This is a cool thread
View all comments by smitty
I too feel the pain of poor US citizens forced to cut back their caffeine to pay for gas for their individual SUV transportation. Really. I can’t sleep nights. Is there some kind of fund I can contribute to? It puts the so-called plight of (say) the Burmese into its place on the World Suffering League. Like when a couple of trailers got blown over in Scrotum, Illinois. Show *that* footage to those lazy-ass Zimbabweans - that’ll quit their whining.
BKK in a funk? 90% of the world’s population would be ecstatic to be in your funk!
View all comments by Pants Elk
pe - I was not saying US is having it harder than others but I found it funny that people are crying over less latte’s versus gas and places around the world are starving or worse.
Yes - even with bkk in a funk it is a cool place but having a business here and holidaying here are different animals all the way around.
I will drown my sorrows over cheap booze and even cheaper women.
View all comments by smitty
@Smitty…It’s your blog. It’s your rules. Set whatever limits you want.
You and pmmp are small “farang” businessmen in Thailand. Naturally, local politics have a huge impact on your short and long term decisions. The more input you have, the better off you will be….or at least more informed. Deal.
Oh yeah…keep up the good work on all fronts.
Cheers!!
View all comments by The Asian Badger
ab - thanks. I guess I just don’t understand why people do not see these as valid subjects to discuss. IN general overall it effects how this place is ans may effect some of the things people here seem to dwell on - like the girls and booze. For me I like to deal with it all.
anyway. good stuff.
when u hitting bkk?
View all comments by smitty
Smitty: (a.k.a ‘punk’)
Some of us, which are stuck 1000’s of miles away from the funky place use this blog to recapture their memories and to remind them what they love about the place. Hell, it even brings a smile to our face when YP cocks up and ends up with a woman.
I guess the non-business owners don’t want to read about the boring stuff?
Just my view on it. Maybe you should spend less time talking politics and more time working on the kitchen?
And as for “You and pmmp are small “farang” businessmen in Thailand”
- exactly how much weight did you lose?
View all comments by Daywalker
DW - i just hate it when that happens
Just found out my GF has fooled me for the last year - not all is lost i guess - mai pen rai
View all comments by Young Penfold
PSI100: I actually don’t like posting multiple times on a single subject, but I feel compelled by some inner demon to make one last try here. I think somewhere along the line I’ve given the impression that I’m defending the current government or sounding like I’m saying that the PAD shouldn’t be protesting.
My original comment was that I thought the only really intelligent thing said recently about the Thai political situation was that the current situation “bodes ill for Thai democracy.”
I think it’s common sense to understand that if the system is so frail that a newly elected government can publicly seem to be brought to the brink of dissolution 5 months after the election by a group of street protesters who “do NOT want to run the Country, hence not putting forward any plans to do so” then the system is in serious trouble.
I agree with you that the problem is “an ineffectual corrupt government.”
Your statements support the point. The system in Thailand has given us an ineffectual corrupt government that has so little support that it has been painted into a corner by 5 guys who know how to organize street protests but offer no program aside from ‘get the bastards out’.
These same guys (the PAD) did the same thing two and a half years ago, and the ultimate result of their actions was that the military took over the country, appointed an ineffectual caretaker government, replaced the 1997 constitution with a deeply flawed document, and in the democratic election that followed we found that the country had traded in Thaksin for Samak.
Again, all the signs “bode ill for Thai democracy”.
The fact that I think the PAD are not the answer doesn’t mean that I support the government of the day… Samak is an idiot and possibly a criminal. His ministers are inexperienced and ineffective. Of course, that’s part of what happens when you ban 111 of the most experienced politicians (including most of the ministers from the previous government) from contesting elections.
But it’s not enough for the PAD (and I believe that means its not enough for you or me or anyone else) to simply say the current government sucks and the electoral system in Thailand is broken. Again… we went down that road in 2005-06 with the result that the country is weaker today than it was then.
Personally, lacking any better plan I would like to see the Thai government system given a chance to work. I don’t mind the fact that the PAD is protesting… but now they seem to protest for the sheer fun of it. They helped achieve significant things that put pressure on the government within the system, then became petulant and demanded that the government resign.
Again, my question would be: “to be replaced by what?”
The legal systems, given time, have the opportunity (not the guarantee) of working.
1. The electoral commission has leveled charges in the Supreme Court that could lead to the dissolution of three parties that form the coalition government. (Personally I think that the penalty of dissolution is too drastic — killing a mosquito with a sledgehammer — but that’s another discussion). These are active cases that are in the process of being considered.
2. In answer to calls from some for a “National Unity Government” the Democrats (the opposition party) have answered that they do not want a National Unity Government… they believe they can effectively manage as an opposition party, and they want the legitimacy of democratically elected governments to be protected — most likely so that they can claim the same legitimacy when they win a future election. I would have thought most people from countries with a tradition of democracy would support this idea.
3. When the government tried to amend the constitution (a move that I agree with, but others see as simply self-serving) the pressure brought to bear by the opposition, the press, the public opinion and the PAD led to the delay of any effort to amend the constitution. In other words, the government backed down.
4. The Democrats demanded the right to challenge the government in parliment during the current session. Due in part to the pressure from the PAD the government had to back down again and allow 2 days for the Thai form of “question time”, followed by a debate on the Democrats’ no confidence motion.
5. The Democrats have gone on record as opposing the dissolution of the current government. Democrat Party secretary-general Suthep Thuagsuban said the country had spent a lot of money to hold the general election and the current government has been in power for less than five months, so dissolving the Lower House would be “senseless”.
These are all systems that are WORKING to put pressure on the government. In America or Australia (where I have lived previously) these systems would be given a chance to operate… they would be supported by the public as part and parcel of the democratic process.
But democracy in Thailand is frail. In fact, the model of representative government may not be the best system for selecting a government in the Land of Smiles, but it is the current system.
Street protests have helped the Democrats achieve many solid victories in the parliment and senate in recent weeks, but the PAD is not content to see the systems of government offered the chance to work. They have become almost childish with their demands that the only thing that they will accept is the resignation of the current PM and his government.
It’s the same mentality that has led to 18 coups in 76 years of constitutional monarchy… if you don’t like the current government, overthrow it.
In countries like England, Australia, New Zealand and America (along with many many others) people will rail against the government, but it’s the stability of the system — the faith in the courts, the checks & balances, and the political system itself — that allows people to wait for the next election to put things right (or to take more immediate action through actions such as no confidence votes, double dissolution votes or impeachment trials).
Why does the current situation “bode ill for Thai democracy”?
Because it shows that people DO NOT have faith in those systems or in the political process.
But seven decades of “if you don’t like it, overthrow it” has left Thailand a politically immature and crippled nation with little sense of how to improve.
Groups like the PAD should be working closely with opposition party (the Democrats) to build strategies which allow the opposition to take over the government by using the existing political systems instead of bemoaning that the systems don’t work.
We’ve seen great examples (detailed above) of how the political process in Thailand CAN make progress if it is given a chance, but heady with recent success, the PAD has started to lose the plot and undermine the system instead of supporting it.
The PAD, you, and others can say the current government stinks (a sentiment I agree with). But to demand its resignation, its dissolution or a military takeover is simply irresponsible unless there is something on the table — a plan for how to improve.
This is just an English language blog in Thailand. No one in the government is going to change the way they do things as a result of what we write, but it’s just plain silly to shout loudly that something is broke if there are no ideas on offer about how to fix it.
That’s why the PAD, in it’s current state of mind, is dangerous. It is attacking the government successfully. But unlike the Democratic Party, which seems to have a plan and a strategy for using the political system to improve Thailand, the PAD is simply a force of divisiveness at the moment.
Having supported the Democrats and won several good victories against the government, the PAD should shout loudly about the victories, and go back to barracks until the situation demands attention again. Simply raising the stakes to a level that offers no compromise is bad for the country.
Okay, I’ll try to contain myself from this point on, but I find this discussion frustrating which is why I keep jumping back in. Maybe it helps me understand CC’s obsession about the business plan for the Big Mango in earlier times.
Smitty said in an earlier comment in this string that “my biggest take away from all this is that wherever WW is staying the p4p action is possibly non-existent.” I don’t know what the fuck that was supposed to mean unless he was suggesting that I have too much time on my hands… a way of asking me to shut up if I don’t agree? I dunno. It was smitty who introduced the topic of the governments troubles in the blog, and who went on to say in his further comments that “I tire of people saying we cannot talk about this stuff on the blog. We can, we will and it will continue. I have businesses here and the politics has a huge impact on business here. So I like talking about it and learning about it.”
So he’s inviting discussion. Disagreements are bound to exist in any political discussion anywhere; if the discussion is going to be opened up, it may as well be opened seriously.
Contrary to Daywalker’s opinion that “the non-business owners don’t want to read about the boring stuff” I am not a business owner but I live here, and the state of politics impacts my life in a very real way. Far from making the blog boring, I believe it makes it more interesting and stimulating.
As always, the option exists not to spend time reading the stuff you’re not interested in. I skip the blogs about Abu Dabi, China, Cambodia and anything with Big Baby Kenny’s name on it.
I imagine it would be easy enough to skip past the political discussions if they don’t interest you.
Okay, that’s it. I’ll try to be quiet about this now. If I haven’t made my opinion clear by now then I’m unlikely to do so with more words.
Cheers,
WW
View all comments by werewolf
WW: Sorry, my ’some of us’ was meant to include the “the non-business owners don’t want to read about the boring stuff”
People who don’t have a care in the world are still people too.
View all comments by Daywalker
I don’t live in the LOS but I follow English language coverage of economics/politics in the regions. As far as I can tell Thailand has two main parties that change names sometimes. One is deeply corrupt, generally urban, supported by much of the military, and vaguely royalist. The other is deeply corrupt, generally rural, supported by much of the police, and vaguely populist in rhetoric at least. Not exactly the best choices in the world.
That said, it’s not terribly better where I live. Nobody in mainstream US politics is willing to tell the truth about our account balance, military spending, education, and so on. And while the corruption isn’t the blatant ‘bags of money for votes’ kind, nobody can raise a few hundred millions of dollars from donors without those donors expecting some very specific favors in return. I usually vote for the Democrat only because they tend to thump their bibles with moderately less enthusiasm and I think my civil rights–the ones that I still have–are better cared for in their hands.
Politics is a low, venal occupation. It attracts low, venal people and always has. It’s our job to keep them on a short leash.
View all comments by tosh
while we’re on the subject of funks, is it true that bkk is having some seriously weird weather at the moment? i hear it’s been raining for days and days straight and temperatures have been like in winter time. maybe the soi dogs are wearing t-shirts in June ?!@%
View all comments by Mr Carpet
Smitty, I think this thread is very valuable and thought-provoking, *but*. For me and thousands of others out here (wherever that is) the SuperMangoBrothers are the sultans of sleaze, the mavens of muff - you see more ass than a sumo thong, you run a great bar in one of the world’s great cities - “I’m like, huh?!” when I read pieces about low season blues, economic woes, political turmoil, and the rest of the dreary shit we all have to put up with (and/or ignore). “I’m like,” if YOU guys can’t have all the fun that’s left in the world, who can?
Big manly hugs and a bareknuckle noogie from Pants Elk
View all comments by Pants Elk
pe - thanks. as a blog writer and caretaker I have to cover all bases but I get your point and I will do my best to even it out some.
cheers!
View all comments by smitty
Well said Tosh
View all comments by doctorbond
I don’t mind reading about politics once in a while.
But I can understand that some people find it boring.
Sex and violence always sell better.
View all comments by hanuman
As you might of noticed I never comment on politics because I know precisely feck all about it in my own country and care even less about it, so what chance do i have over here
I only comment on ’sex and violence’ because as the wise Ricky gervais once said ‘write about what you know’
Im writing another piece for the blog, which fuses politics and wanking (dont think im joking). Stay tuned
View all comments by Young Penfold
Young Penfold, I can’t wait for your blog piece! I mean, I really can’t wait, because I have other things to do, like twirling a Gillette in my nose to remove the latest crop of bristle, which I’m saving and making into a cushion for you so you can reach the bar like a grown-up.
Back on-topic, I don’t have ANY objections to political discussion here, It’s just that I get that from newspapers, and I come here to grind my fillings to bitter paste in my mouth in envy of the SuperMario Brothers’ lifestyle. And to read the Bard of Bangkok’s latest ukases (LOOK IT UP).
Hey - what about Preah Vihear?!
View all comments by Pants Elk
PE - never fear, Im onto smitty about getting a booster chair for the new mango, and i hear they are bringing the mental-age for drinking in bangkok down to 12years old so i should be ready to roll.
P.S. i didnt mean my whole post is going to be about politics and wanking, just touches on an unfortunate episode i had in the gym showers the other day that i will mention
View all comments by Young Penfold
Did you know that regular masturbating lessens your chance of catching testicular (AND OTHER) cancer(s)? It’s true - I was sent a link earlier this year to a learned scientific journal which proved, statistically, under laboratory conditions (YP already nursing a semi at the thought of *that*) that flogging the log is medically good for you. Based on their findings, I should live to be a hundred, at least.
View all comments by Pants Elk
Where did they find a control group of men who DIDN’T masturbate??!
View all comments by werewolf
Hmm. Good point. Maybe they all died of cancer?
View all comments by Pants Elk
Yeh there is only 2 types of men hey wolf,
Wankers and Liers!!!!!!!!!!!
Which brings me to, “What is the most sensitive
part of a mans body when he’s having a wank?????????
Your EARS listening for someone coming to catch you out!
View all comments by GREMLEN
Well, we’ve always known what the PAD was against; they’ve always been opposed to the government of the day if it was elected (but it did not oppose the government of Surayud which was appointed by the military).
It has always been difficult, though, to know quite what they stood for. IN 2006, prior to the military coup, they formed a political party, but said that they would not have any politicians running for office. WTF?! That’s not a political party, its a Tupperware party.
In 2008 the PAD has been back to it’s old tricks… protesting against the government, calling for resignations, dissolutions and re-writes, but refusing to say what system they wanted to use to replace the flawed democracy that keeps electing the ‘wrong’ people.
My criticisms of the PAD in comments above have been focused on this failing: happy to scream about what’s wrong, but not willing to do anything to make things better.
Well, two things have happened this week. First, the Thai Supreme Court has upheld the EC red-card issued against the former Speaker of the House, K. Yongyuth. This creates the potential for the ruling PPP party to be dissolved and the current government to be toppled by a constitutional process; not something I think is a great idea, but an occurrence that should be applauded by all of you who are believe that the current Thai government is not legitimate because the elections were not free & fair.
The systems set out in the constitution seem to be working as intended.
The second important thing that happened this week was that the PAD (the People’s Alliance for Democracy) has finally — after 3 years — outlined it’s ideas for Thailand’s government. Basically, the People’s Alliance for Democracy has proposed that Thailand do away with a representational democratic system, and move towards a legislature controlled by appointed representatives.
It seems that the proposal would also institutionalize the military’s involvement in and control of the government of the country. THE PAD has also suggested that the military no longer be controlled by the civilian government, but by the King.
If you are interested in a detailed analysis of the PADs new position, you may want to read the very well written analysis by Michael Conners at http://www.bangkokpost.co.th/topstories/topstories.php?id=128765
Here’s an excerpt from this much longer detailed analytical piece which was originally printed in the Asian Sentinel:
I congratulate the PAD for finally outlining their program for the future of Thailand. Obviously they have been reading my comments on this site and have responded.
I have said before that I don’t believe democracy is for everyone, so I am not really offended by the PADs suggestions; in fact I understand their reasoning. Anyone who believes that democracy is they best way forward for Thailand, however, may want to take a close look at these proposals.
It would seem appropriate for the PAD to now change it’s name to the People AGAINST Democracy.
View all comments by werewolf
They’re certainly against Thai “democracy”, which I applaud.
All comes down to definitions - there’s no way in hell we’re going to get anything close to a fair and democratic election here anytime soon, so what’s the next best thing? Richest guy wins?
And no, I have no solution either
Similar situation in the UK - everyone I know is thoroughly sick of Labour, but most of us still remember the last Tory government, and don’t fancy a re-run of that much either. Two possible outcomes, both suck, we don’t have an alternative solution, but by hell we’ll complain about it
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
ww: interesting take ww, agree with most. Just in the last week or so we had the recent PPP red card, the conviction of Thaksin’s lawyers in the lunch box bribing, and the Japanese bribery scandal that possibly involves the current PM. Corruption at it’s finest.
I’m pro-Democracy but it’s hard to be so when the people getting voted in are using bribery in all forms to get in, stay in, and when they re in are as corrupt as can be, which is worse than suggesting anti-Democratic solutions, especially when those anti-Democratic solutions are trying to curtail this behavior. Interesting indeed. Perhaps they should be called People Against People Against Democracy?
View all comments by pmmp