You can find part one of The new way forward here.
There are a ton of comments and thought I would do another post to answer some of them. Some of this might be too much information but let me defer to the title of the blog for an explanation. I would also add that the purpose of announcing the strategy was to make sure people heard it from us first and to solicit feedback. In no way do we think this is a slam dunk but we have done the math and feel like it is better than the alternative or the traditional beer bar model. I won’t get into comparing this with a go-go bar because it makes no sense to do so.
Always a fan of playing here’s looking at you - latest contestant is the Ajarn Forum:
Okay. Going to try and clear up any misconceptions that may have started from the first post.
We are not building a club - but a bar. Similar to the old Big Mango but hopefully better. So the basics of the bar are the same. Food, drinks, pool, TV, music and so on. There just won’t be any bargirls on staff.
English classes. We are working with Empower, they have teachers and courses. No out of pocket money on this for us other than offering a classroom and we may try to volunteer as teachers.
The cards - the goal is to have something we can hand to girls to give them a map, a sense of membership to something and the ability to distinguish between girls who have them and those that do not. For sure our model will evolve but we have to start somewhere. Later we envision numbered or cards with mag stripes so we can track things better.
Let me explain what the cards say. I will add that I worked on the cards with non-bargirls and we are looking to create something the girls think looks cool and are happy to keep. Ever notice that every business in Thailand pushes some sort of member card, VIP card or benefits card? Thais love this stuff. My girlfriend must have 20 of them and she throws out the non-cool looking ones to make room for new cards. So we wated to play to this membership mantra a bit. Freelancers and bargirls are no different in this regard.
The front of the card - the logo just says The Big Mango Bar - spells it in Thai. It is not using the translation.
The two lines on the front near the bottom right say:
Line 1: Lady Club. Once again spelled out in Thai - not translated
Line 2: club samrap puying. The club for ladies. We spelled club rather than used the translation for it which is chom rohm. Trying to be more fun. samprap means belonging to or for. Puying means girl. So the club for girls - not the bar itself but the association.
On the back is the map. The thai on the map say thanon sukhumvit and then uses the word soi for soi 2,4 and 6.
The green line is a little more complicated and I have worked through about 5 versions of it. What we are trying to say is the cardholder is entitled to special things but obviously we don’t want to list the bennies since they may change over time.
So it says - I have made breaks in the word for easier translation:
aphisit piset samrap phuutheuu bat thaonan
loosely says that the card holder is entitled to special privileges.
You can see how much Thai it takes to say something simple. I am sure people with better Thai will jump in and profess to a better way but we are just wanting to convey something simple so they know they get something with the cards that girls without the cards will not get.
I have carried this around for about a week now with salon, office girls, waitresses and freelancers getting a look at it. They all want one cause they think it looks cool and they all ask what they will get. I say something like a 40 baht bottle of beer and they all ask when. So I think they get the drift.
On to the clinic stuff. I l reckon that most guys in the scene use the ostrich defense when it comes to their view on the safety of the p4p scene in Thailand. A little, let me put my head in the sand, and everything will be okay. Ignorance is bliss right?
Well - I am going to pop a few pre-conceived notions here.
Most girls in the scene are really only getting checked if they are smart, have management pushing them to do so and have a place to get checked that won’t break the bank. Notice the management comment there. So in the freelancer scene my guess is the amount of girls getting checked is less than those who actually work at a bar.
Years ago Thailand was full of cheap VD clinics or small private clinics that also received some form of government assistance. Thaksin did a cool think by starting the 30 baht health scheme but from what I understand from talking to a few clinics and others involved in this form of outreach - most of the clinics stopped getting any more government assistance because the money was diverted to the 30 baht program.
So there are less clinics than before and the costs have risen. One of the few large clinics left that is subsidized is the one near Suk soi 22. Problem is that it takes a while to be seen and a lot of the bargirls feel like going there lets everyone know they are bargirls. So there is a face issue there.
The other choices are to go to hospitals but that costs more or to go to private clinics which also costs more. So cost is a factor and having to explain to doctors they are sex workers is not fun.
The large conglomerates that own massage parlors and the like tend to bring in doctors for on-site check ups or to pay for the cost at a pre-determined clinic. Once again nothing here for the freelancers. Even in Patpong the owner of all the King’s group bars funds his own clinic and has employment tied to mandatory checkups. I can assure you nothing like that is going on at Nana or Cowboy that I know of.
So what can freelancers do? Some folks might say well they can use the 30 baht scheme but for the most part they can’t since the 30 baht scheme is funded by employers via the Social Security Tax. Employees whose employers pay the tax sign the employee up and give the employee a card for the hospitals. Well freelancers don’t work for anyone and are not registered in the program. Some may have gotten around this through families or part-time work but most are invisible to the system.
Empower is actually working with the government to create a program that would allow freelancers and sex workers to join some virtual social security pool. Keep in mind they will get no retirement some day either since they have never paid into the system.
So for us - we are not running a clinic. We are not paying for a clinic. We hope to announce more soon but the idea is to establish a relationship with a private clinic to smooth out the process for the girls, get some sort of discount and encourage any sort of sex ed we can. Also distributing condoms is on the table as well.
Private label anyone? 
For me personally - I just think this is a big part of the puzzle and worth spending time on. It is all about awareness - for the girls and the guys. I don’t believe in the ostrich defense here.
Hopefully that addresses some of the questions.
Hi all
One question, who is behind the new Big Mango? Owners?
Best Regards
Mr.Newbie
View all comments by Mr.Newbie
same guys as the old big mango
View all comments by smitty
Smitty, I am going to make one simple point on your concept where I think you have grossly overestimated the behavior of local working/office class women in Bangkok and then leave all my other thoughts aside for a moment. And it is not a point open to debate since it is not an opinion, but a mere fact of the behavior of local Bangkok society, social class racism within Thailand, and overall snobbery amongst the different social groups here that are always dodging for a bit more status.
The point is, none of the local working class or office girls will spend time in the bar. Why? Simple:
1 - Girls with a proper office job will not hang out in bars with sweaty farangs who like to drink beer.
2 - Girls with a proper office job will not hang out in bars with any form of freelance girls from Isan.
3 - White skinned girls will not hang out in places where dark skinned girls frequent.
4 - Educated, good girls, or whatever you prefer to refer to any Thai girl who is not a freelancer, bar girl, hooker, some sort of “shade of gray” or what have you will not be seen in a place with foreigners where they can be even mistaken for a hooker.
5 - If you don’t have trendy looking male Thai staff, a really good selection of Yum or other assorted “gub gam”, live music and/or dancing, it will not be a place where office girls are interested to party.
6 - Good girls looking for a farang boyfriend are typically not going to hunt for foreigners in places where there are any sort of girls hooking anyway.
7 - If the bar is within 2 streets of Nana plaza in any direction you won’t get any girls interested in partying there because of the stigma of the area. Case in point, there are no bars close to Nana where you can find non-hookers. The closest is probably the English pubs around Soi 33 way.
8 - Cheap beer and food will not attract any female customers except freelance hookers. Certainly not office girls who have money and want a bit of status with their
I can go on, but I think what I said should give you the point. And any office girls who tell you they will come may come once and/or are just wanting to sound positive about your idea. How many Thai girls who have manners would tell you they wouldn’t be caught dead in a place with hookers? But if you are completely satisfied with a bar filled with freelance hookers from Beer Garden, Thermae, Grace, and etc only then no problem.
But places like Gulliver have free internet, decent music, a huge menu of all kinds of farang and Thai food, pool tables, lots of seating, both indoor and outdoor, and all the rest of it. So I am not sure I see any difference in the concept.
Oh well, I already said more than I planned to. Sorry….
View all comments by CheapCreep
cheap - u feel better now? I new you were just dying to let it loose. Take a deep breath now. All better?
No one said we were targeting office girls. But I can tell u personally of about 10 girls that work in offices that used to work in bars. They are targets - plain and simple.
2 or 3 of them are aware of what we are doing and said they love going looking for Farang boyfriends and were happy to get a discount on booze.
So if you think the concept is the same a gullivers than okay. Up to you.
There is no discount at gullivers for the girls. In fact, if you remember, Gullivers started as a bar that was prohibiting freelancers and eventually realized they would make no money if they did. So I would say now they tolerate them but don’t really encourage it.
Anyway. Its all good. Having spent time in Gullivers I feel like I know the difference. Shit, overpriced food, wifi that works some of the time but no plugs for my laptop, and so on and so on. Clearly they are successful so if my emulating some of their model can’t be all bad.
There is room for innovation cheap. Sometimes I feel your jaded view of things creates an attitude where you think nothing changes or nothing new can happen.
I am a Salmon swimming upstream in your river of gloom.
View all comments by smitty
cc - I will also add that my impression is you think the whole crux of this revolves around office girls - not sure how you think that but that is not the case. Nor do I have my sights set on it.
I just think there are girls who work in places other than bars - salons, offices, hotels and restaurants and so on that look for places to meet guys. Essentially that is the whole after hours scene - which is not just hookers. But then the gray word comes up again since I might have shagged a girl who works at an insurance company and I paid her taxi ride home. Is she a hooker?
Anyway. All great feedback.
View all comments by smitty
Don’t feel better per say, and I haven’t quite let it loose yet, but hopefully you don’t feel worse. That is the important part since it is your sweat and hard equity on the line. And open eyes are of course the best thing. And then if someone like me is totally wrong with their “nothing changes or nothing new can happen ideas” as you call them, and your vision is spot-on, then you are laughing.
And if you want to be another Gulliver, then go for it, but I think you will have to get in line. In my opinion Soi 7/1, Soi 8, and elsewhere is already laced with wannabees trying to bite off a bit of Gulliver’s fat. I must admit I haven’t been in Gulliver in quite a while, but I can’t imagine there are anything in there but hookers, or girls living on the passive income stream from overseas and wasting their life away drinking, smoking, and playing pool in between the times when their sailors come ashore.
Discount? Everything in Thailand is “discount”, happy hour, ladies this, ladies that. Again, a beer for 40 Baht less isn’t going to line the seats with girls from a better class and or freelancers. They are not there for the beer, or to stay a long time, but the score. In, out, back in, back out. And is just the part multiple in and outs per day they do in the bars itself. In the room they are hoping for less ins and outs so they can get back and re-bait the hook for another catch. But if you could guarantee the girls at least 2 hooks a night then you will have them lining up for sure.
The police could be another problem. They might not be a fan of those cards and a couple of kind farang guys making quality of life better for the hookers.
Hey, but let’s hope I am just a jaded critter as you describe me as and I am completely misreading things here. I have no other than good wishes for you guys to be a success and you don’t have to reinvent the wheel here. You are not trying to take over the night life world in Bangkok. Just to make a living and so why not another watering hole in the world of many holes. It can surely be done.
But if you want to be innovative as you say then why open another “bar” bar? Open some sort of society, community, members club, what have you. Sure, you sell food and so forth to make your money, but don’t label it as a bar. Make it a destination place for social exchanges between punters and hookers. Or maybe that concept is way too sophisticated itself for the masses. Hookers with the lights on. Scary thought I guess.
You could even make it into an indoor version of the Nana parking lot except where girls have to walk around wearing different colored bracelets which tell the prices and services they offer to make it easier for the punters to know which ones fit their needs. Red for 1,500 Short time, Green for 2,500 long time, Blue if they take it up the ass, Pink if they are into water sports, and so on. You could even give them a late night bracelet in black they can switch to if they haven’t pulled yet when it is getting late and they want to drop their price to under 1,000 Baht. Then hand all the punters a key card when they come in so they know what the bracelets mean. You could even give the punters laser tag guns so they can shoot at the girl they want and have the girls where bar codes that trigger a light when they are shot at so they know when the guy across the bar is ready to take them off. You could also offer the guys discounts if they short time 2 in a night. Buy one, get the second at half price and then hit the girls for 15% of their take. Now there is an innovative business concept!
View all comments by CheapCreep
although I totally agree with Cheaps points, surely the point here is that those attitudes are changing fast… 10 years ago (to use a round number) i would have agreed 110%. but now and certainly in the near future i am not too sure. i think the guys are spot on.
View all comments by Mr Carpet
cc - I just knew if I pushed you - you would offer up ideas. Which is what I am dying for.
We won’t lie - we just gotta get open but I think we are starting off on a different foot. Soi 8 does not let the hookers in.
Anyway. We had a bar. Decent biz. We closed. Re opening. New model. I like what you mention.
It is interesting and thanks for bringing it up. I have always wanted to implement an SMS auction freelance system. Or book your freelancer online.
There are tons of ideas. Imagine if you well that we just had to start somewhere.
We do have some ideas for how the tie the net into this but those will have to wait for now.
As always your pushing makes me smarter.
I appreciate it - thanks.
View all comments by smitty
No worries Smitty. Glad my spewing is of some value. One simple point about business though. It is always much harder to start a new trend then to get onto a trend that is proven and working. As they say in the stock market, “the trend is your friend” and trying to time a reversal is always dangerous as the trend may continue. So new concepts, no matter how innovative, are always dangerous business models, unless you have tons of money to invest into branding a new concept. And people that start new trends successfully are often just lucky, can be timing, can be a myriad of other reasons why something works and at a certain given time.
As for your idea about pulling girls who work in salons, offices, hotels and restaurants, I don’t think their attitudes on mixing with the other variety will be any different and items 1-6 above still apply. In fact, they will look down on girls who take easy street and open their legs instead of working hard for their money. My maid who gets 2,500 Baht a month to clean my place twice a week wouldn’t go to a bar with freelancers if she wanted to meet a foreigner. She probably has even stronger ideals on it all than a girl who makes more money than her. This is because since she doesn’t make much and has probably run the scenario in her mind already of taking easy street and making 10 times the money in a month versus cleaning my toilet. In the end she probably decided scrubbing my toilet with a brush is better than scrubbing some farang’s sweaty balls with her tongue at any price. As for the “non-hooker” girls in the afterhours places, that is just another shade of gray.
Well a-nuf for now. Peace out. Back to my scambaiting…
View all comments by CheapCreep
cc - I hear u
just think big mango++
new but improved
View all comments by smitty
Don’t quite know what the Big Mango was like, but just remember all bars in Nana have the home field advantage. Bound to get some fallout from the gogos either before or after guys want to go for a wrestle. I remember friend who used to like to go to Woodstock back in the day. Have a burger and beer first and then grab a take out from one of the bars on the way out. So if you are talking about taking your bar to a more geographically challenged area then you will certainly be more challenged to bring in the punters. You’ll save on giving some tea money to the brownie boys, but it will cost you in foot traffic. Location, location, location…
View all comments by CheapCreep
cc - agree again but it is a double edges sword. some stayed away who wanted to come due to the plaza. I don’t mind getting out of the plaza.
Lower soi 4 is getting lots of work. new seafood joint on the corner of soi 4 and soi 6. About a 25mil plus build out from what I have heard.
PLease don’t discount the power of our websites. I don’t take your pounding for fun - believe me. And there is NO ad money in this game. But when it comes to an online audience, some of them are and will be customers, we have plenty of those.
So I hear you but you are preaching to the choir. This is the 3rd go for us.
View all comments by smitty
wow Cheapolay !!! constructive ideas and intelligent debate - have you stopped taking your medicine? I like the idea about the wrist bands.
Smitty - embrace diversity have an issan floor and a white skinned floor - influencing the decor one way or another (bling it up for the issan floor) could mean that you have two distinct groups of clientele and everybody is happy. Of course you will also need to split up the men folk into different classes - probably using trouser length as an indicator
View all comments by doctorbond
It’s all good B. Hope you tear it up…
View all comments by CheapCreep
DB - Actually I am back on the medicine and I got a new cock-ring with some extra bling-bling on it for the Issan chicas to gargle on. Maybe that explains my other dimension of which obviously there are many. Not sure how long I can afford to stay on the pills though, so I’m accepting donations…
View all comments by CheapCreep
dr bond - calling the contractor. may have to delay the open.
cc - I am building a website now.
keepcheapcreeponthemeds.tv
the .tv thing will take me longer to register though - so bear with me.
I do need your credit card though to book the domain and all. I promise though - all proceeds will go towards your meds.
View all comments by smitty
S - Better make it a .org since it is for a worty cause. I’ll mail you a check (done use plastic), but I just need you to send me a bit of cash first for postage…
View all comments by CheapCreep
Did not quite understand whether your card loving girlfriend is a freelancer or a bargirl?
d’oh! Just kidding
View all comments by Suk Psycho
Sorry, but I guess a side effect of those pills I am taking is they won’t let me leave well enuff alone:
Cops won’t like it if you are giving street hookers a safe, comfortable haven to trade their wares. After all, it means less money for the men in brown picking up street meat and fining them for selling their hair pies in public.
Girls working in 9-5 jobs won’t want to learn English from a bar offering an English study program sponsored by a hooker self-help org like Empower. But of course the hookers will, and they do for free already at places like Goodwill Industries, etc.
So scrap the English and the discounts for the hookers and offer a free letter writing service for the girls to help extract money from their overseas sponsors who are suffering from dreaded-sperm-buildup while sitting in some lonely, cold apartment in the Northern hemisphere with their dick in one hand and their mouse in the other and then take a 15% commission on the pull-in from the girls. You can even do a PayPal type service to handle the transfers so that you make an extra percent on the transfers.
View all comments by CheapCreep
cc - why don’t u make me an L/C I can use at bkk bank to draft against your account for purposes of business. Obviously I won’t submit any expenses against it until your site is up and running.
suk - she is actually one of the girls from cacade that looks like a girl.
View all comments by smitty
Smitty,
I have to confess I never made it into the original Mango but this new idea sounds interesting. I admit that it’s a bold move and you guys are certainly taking some risks by not doing the same old thing as everybody else but it sounds like something that could be huge if you get the right mix.
I wish you guys all the luck and look forward to popping in for a cold one on my next trip.
Bill
View all comments by Billy Bangkok
S - A few more categories for the bracelet color identification cards:
Additional colored bracelets:
Green – Japanese only
Purple – No Indians
Yellow – Accepting Arabs (groups of 3 Arab friends are OK, but only 1 at a time)
White – Available for threesomes
Off-White – Available for threesomes with a lady boy in the mix
Sky Blue – Not a lady boy, just look a bit like one.
Brown & Gold – Pre-op LB
Brown & Silver – Post-op LB
Black & Green – Unshaven Box
Blue & Gray – Shaven Box
Pink & Purple – Box available for shaving (BYO razor)
Pink & Orange – Will go with Africans if they only put in 1/3 of the way.
Solid Gold – I will lick your bung if you lick mine
View all comments by CheapCreep
bb - thanks for the words. I read your site from time to time. Usually I am too busy taking pain meds for my carpal tunnel I acquired after cc joined the blog but such is life.
Looks like my tactics at extracting baht from him are not working either so this bar has to work.
but seriously - it is risk taking and bold maneuvers but isn’t that what life is about? Happy blogging and we will catch up when u come to town. We can meet at Gullivers.
View all comments by smitty
Smitty- I’ve been a reader for the last few weeks and lately I’ve been curious about the internet aspect. Obviously, you guys have a pretty hefty audience here, and I’m sure a lot of guys hear about the Mango from this blog and end up finding their way there- I know I plan on it. What I was wondering though is if you guys have any rough idea of the number of customers you’ve pulled in purely because of this blog. Is it at all significant? I imagine you guys get at least a few, but does it have any real impact on business? Just curious…
View all comments by X-tian
X-tian - All the answers will be in the book once Smitty has retired and written it.
Smitty - Make sure and send him the link to where he can buy the book online after when it is published. I can even be your agent for free so hopefully this will cover some of the domain registraiton costs on my domain you are grumbling about. Well, I better get some water to swallow my pill with now. I can feel the meds starting to wear off. The bottled water at Gullys is pretty good by the way…
View all comments by CheapCreep
cc - loving it.
xtian - it is really hard to calculate this but we know the net is a big pull. Links from other sites, google ad words and so on. The blog is one facet of the strategy. I would say though, more importantly, it is how we kept the same customers coming back trip after trip. Meaning I think the blog helps build loyalty or helps us to stay in touch. So maybe we acquired via a walk by but we tend to keep them with the net.
The blog has twice the traffic it had when we closed. So it will be interesting this time to see how many people we get when we reopen since the walk by will be a lot less.
View all comments by smitty
Well, sign me up for a first-edition copy right away. I’ll keep it as a collector’s item.
View all comments by X-tian
jesus folks - give me time to pre-autograph. I am only selling the limited edition ones. pmmp is my agent cc so better get cracking on that L/C.
View all comments by smitty
Smitty- makes sense. You guys definitely have a sort of community sense around here. I’m basically just a reader (and that for only a short time) and I already feel as if I know a bit about you guys- if that makes sense.
Best of luck to you guys and hopefully I’ll stop in early next year.
View all comments by X-tian
xtian - basically if you multiply your thought process times the users per day across all of our site - some small percentage becomes a customer. so overtime that only grows.
We will also use our other sites to advertise our bars so all that helps. So somewhere in there, although hard to track, the net is key to the bar’s biz model.
I think the cc hit on a few things - the social aspect of things and how it might attract punters and girls. We think about this a ton and have some ideas but just been too busy.
thanks for being a reader though and hopefully soon a customer. laterz
View all comments by smitty
Sounds like the new bar will be same same the old bar, but different.
View all comments by But Different
S - Forget it, who wants to be your agent when you are giving away all the secrets for free. Where is the upside!?!?
Well, I’ll name the book for ya at least, it will just cost you a domain regi of cource:
Punters, Porkers and Pimps - The plonker’s guide to sleeping with over the hill go-go girls gone freelancer and the art of running a bar in Bangkok where the police drink for free because they can.
I know the title is a bit long, but long titles are in fashion these days and at least I didn’t include the full name of the city of Bangkok in there or you might not have fit the whole title of the book on the front cover.
View all comments by CheapCreep
cc - u will have to leave out the long form of bkk.
since u will have to add - and my mother didn’t know until she read the book
I think we need to get on these domains asap. Let’s stop with the check shit. U western union me the money and I will register both domains but will be sure to put u down as the owner of your domain. I swear. Can u send me a photo with the western union code written in lipstick on your chest? I won’t even post it on the blog.
View all comments by smitty
@x-tian, being an avid reader for a while now, and knowing the boys and the old mango, it really is a real and virtual community. Even though the mango has not been around for a while, lots of people are awaiting the rebirth. Not bothered about all the stuff on freelancers, english lessons etc, just want the Mango back.
View all comments by auk
Will this photo of me work: http://thescambaiter.com/forum/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1030
View all comments by CheapCreep
auk - thanks for pointing that out. I know readers think this is all brand new or something. Mango ran through 2 very solid anniversaries. The numbers kept getting better. So to assure any old customers - we are not changing what the mango was. We are trying to make it better and go freelancer versus bargirls. I know CC has his views on this but pmmp and I know you can’t just open the doors and hope they, the freelancers will come, we figure we have to draw them in. THat is what the program is about.
Anyways - the burgers, once we get the kitchen open, will be back. The pool tables, more TVs, bigger internet line, more computers and so on.
View all comments by smitty
cc - I can’t make out the WU number - where is it written?
View all comments by smitty
My pleasure on the on ajarn.com link. We English teachers need something to do between classroom games of pin the tail on the elephant.
I saw the som tom stand today. You’re right; couldn’t be more convenient. Actually met a New Wave freelancer there this AM having her breakfast. You may be on to something.
You see the new soon-to-be clinic where Steak One was?; maybe u could synergize with them.
25 mil. on the new soi 4 soi 6 place. Wow! Bah. Do the beggars sitting out front get to stay? Least the al fresco diners will have a good view of the Coyote Swan katoy dancer/greeters across the way. That, and the elephants handlers selling their elephant food over the rail, should go well with the green tea ice cream for dessert.
Re your location; do u have a short time hotel in all 4 directions? I think u might.
Onion rings on the menu?
View all comments by jack dawson
will the real jack dawson please stand up?
no really - good to see u posting as yourself again.
I owe you a beer for the link - thanks much!
Spot on with the elephants. I saw that outdoor area as a big danger zone. The korean buses trying to make the expressway use that hook all the time to get back on suk. Plus the elephants and the coyote katoey across the street - oh the joy. We will have short time rooms in all directions really. Just not up. Over time I think even the old chinese lady to the right of us might open up her joint. living the dream.
I had no idea teachers even knew were soi 4 was. I am stunned.
onion rings indeed.
its the french toast I can’t wait for.
View all comments by smitty
Smitty - I wanted to commend you and crew for all the positive things you are planning to do for your customers, staff and the girls. This seemed to get almost completely lost with the (w)hole Isaan/Office girl debate. Thailand is way too full of folks who imitate and not nearly enough people like YOU who innovate.
View all comments by JustinCider
“I had no idea teachers even knew were soi 4 was. I am stunned.”
I can assure you that myself and my fellow ajarns were all regular Big Mango customers and will definitely be checking out the new BM! I hope Nid will still be chief cashier!
View all comments by Brewster
i wish you all the best with this, but let’s face it.. no matter how much you dress it up or how many fancy ‘member’ cards you make, at the end of the day it will just be another hooker bar in an area already full of other hooker bars.
for me the whole nana area is a dump and an embarassment to walk around as a farang.
chok dee.
View all comments by anonzo
You should have a web cam so when we are out of the country we can enjoy what is going on.
Painkillerdon
View all comments by Don Jamison
For your book, Smitty, I propose another title. ‘Birds, Burgers, and Bungs–A Bangkok guide to keeping the girls pretty, the kitchen pumping, and the Boys in Brown off your back. New, revised addition, with special section, ‘Getting laid via SMS.’
Seriously, the New Mango would make a hell of an HBO documentary, but I’m not sure even the cable world is ready for a bright light shined on BKK.
View all comments by tosh
S - Maybe if you are clever you can pick up my WU number from one of these more recent pix of me: http://forum.419eater.com/forum/album_cat.php?cat_id=1
I always wondered how many of those North Africans walled in around the Grace hotel area are lads that are working the circuit from our own backyard.
View all comments by CheapCreep
Smitty - how about using Twitter to tell punters when their favorite squeeze is in? Or something like that. Have the girls notify their presence in advance… or you advertising beer specials, etc. Maybe having a SMS thing going on too?
View all comments by Julian
Long time reader first time blgr. As a small biz owner in the US I have watched this sight with interest and amusement. My 2 cents/baht, listen to all, trust your gut. At the end of the day can you look in the mirror and know you did all you could. Side note, what are your start up cost for such a project? Good luck guys you will need it.
View all comments by burgerman
I just want to say that I applaud you guy’s for your ideas to try and help the girls.
Happy girls = Happy customers
I look forward to spending some of my money in your bar……drinks only, as I have a Thai wife (Knife, cut, feed to ducks etc etc)
Good luck to you.
View all comments by Jaiyenyen
Seems to me that the success of the old Big Mango was that it was a good place to have a cold beer, a good feed and good companions (male and female) for a chin-wag, before, during or after a night on the prowl. The opportunity to bar-fine, while one I took up on occasion, was not the prime reason to pick the Mango over other bars in the area, or other areas.
Appreciate the advantage of passing traffic in NEP, but suspect that was a two way issue given the frequency with which the escalator was broken and blocked off, and the run down nature of the Plaza. The web-site and strength of word of mouth (particularly amongst those farang whole are lucky enough to live in Bkk) should provide enough foot traffic to kick you off and if you are successful in attracting quality FL then you have a reasonable chance of scoring as a “go to” venue. Otherwise, your new location is not exactly a million miles from NEP so the pre, during and post trade can still be yours.
At the end of the day what attracts FL is the chance to score with generous paying customers, preferably with minimal hanging around between engagements. A pleasant location helps but by the numbers still frequenting Thermae, is clearly not a major issue.
What will attract paying customers for you guys is quality FL so the circle can either be virtuous (quality FL leads to paying customers leads to happy FL leads to more quality FL etc.) or vicious (poor quality FL or lack of numbers turns away farang who buy, leads to FL not recognising all the “benefits” of the card, leads to fewer FL etc.).
To sum up this tortuous argument, clearly you need to attract those farang who will happily have a couple of drinks in the bar, buy some food and then have a take away, which they will pay top rate for i.e. me!.
A frequent fuckers card for those who take away from BM2 must be the go, with discounted beers/food if you reach Gold status. Could probably do a tie up with Thai Airways
View all comments by Not in Paradise
I like the way these boys are getting whipped like a government mule for trying something new by some corners.
Im sure if they kept the same formula as the old mango the same parties would be huffing and puffing slagging off the lack of imagination.
Its cool to have people pushing the envelope and innovating. If it doesnt work out, hats off for trying something new, and if thats the case, can revert to the old formula. Times changes boys
View all comments by Young Penfold
JustinCider: Thx dude!
Brewster: A little sarcasm there from smitty. We certainly know there are teachers that frequent the Nana area. After all, we used to be right across from the Cathouse.
As for Nid, she will be doing a little bit of everything and will also be liaison to the Freelancers.
anonzo: To each his own and understand why you think that but love the place personally. I even did Nana Disco and a Nana Parking Lot pull last night, first time to the Disco in almost a year. It’s changed quite a bit but still fun.
Don J: Good to hear from you. Hope all is well and too bad about those Flyers although you may be more of a Penguins fan. No webcam for sure. It would be cool but would also be “evidence” to others.
tosh: You’re so right about that. The world is not ready for the truth.
burgerman: Thx for coming out from lurk state. Without getting into our details I will say that startup costs are WAY cheaper than opening a bar in the US for example, which is why it is so enticing to many farang. On the other side of that the profits are usually way less. In Pattaya and Phuket it’s generally cheaper and you can buy a bar for less than a million baht in most cases. Here in Bkk they’re more expensive on average ranging from 1 million to 25 million depending on how big and where.
Jaiyenyen: Thanks
NotinParadise: Spot on. The newer offerings in the bar are just to spice it up a bit. The main goal is to be a great little pub. Top service, quality sports viewing, great food, low prices, etc. If we get that right then less pressure on the other stuff.
YoungPenfold: Funny you should mention the sms thing. There is a group of 3 bars in Pattaya, the Insomnia group, that does some interesting stuff with FLs. One of those things is promotional sms. I was with a girl recently who spends time in Pattaya and she received one of the Insomnia sms’ while we were hanging out. Definitely doable. As for the Salon, not a bad idea actually. Inside Nana Plaza there are 3 salons and a few smaller salon areas like in front of Casanova (Casanova is a Ladyboy bar if you didn’t know ;). Support services like a Salon and certainly cheap Thai food are good to have local. On the headbands, we will create a special rack on the 6th floor for you.
View all comments by pmmp
I was unawares to the Pattaya bar SMS thing, but as you guys are teched up, im sure its doable.
I get SMS’s from some shops in Thailand ive bought stuff from and filled in a little leaflet, giving me info on deals etc (translated by my GF first)
Maybe an incentive for them to bring mates along for an incentive to check the place out if theres something in it for them
The salons a workable idea. wouldnt need to be Toni n Guy, just normal thai fair but funky in keeping with the bars theme. Kinda like a one-stop-shop. the girls can get made up there first and bring there bitch mates along to check the place out. Doubt it’d cost much to install a few sinks and hair curlers. You can borrow mine
And i just realised the 6th floor is the roof! What about ST rooms?
View all comments by Young Penfold
YoungPenfold: We decided against ST rooms because the soi already has a few hotels that cater to ST. We didn’t want to step on anybody’s toes but would rather partner with them. One advantage over other FL bars in the area is the discretion and proximity to the ST hotels. If you’re into that sort of thing that is.
View all comments by pmmp
“I might have shagged a girl who works at an insurance company and I paid her taxi ride home. Is she a hooker?”
It depends on how much her taxi ride cost…
View all comments by BAF
@ Smitty + pmmp - yes, the world is not ready for it, but in all seriousness, keep a notebook of the best stories/events/successes/disasters. And I don’t mean a blog, which is great of course, but there are parts of starting up a business in BKK that I’m sure you don’t want out in the public on what is in many ways a marketing tool for your new business.
Think of it like this, if you wake up in the middle of the night and have a strange dream, and then write down a few words about it, when you read it in the morning the whole thing will come rushing back. I’d do that if I were you, and then later on your can actually write ‘Birds, Burgers, and Bungs’ or ‘Farangs, Food, and Freelancers’ or ‘Pussy, Pork chops, and Penfold.’ Or you can dust the stories with a patina of unreality (like they’ll need it) and call it fiction.
Or not, of course, but I’m a writer and I’d kill to have that kind of core material.
View all comments by tosh
An idea that crossed my mind while eating out on my own earlier on.
Have a table specifically for hooking up and chatting with other guys who are in the same boat.
Tonight there were a few other guys sitting alone at their tables and I wouldn’t have minded a conversation, but would not have dreamt of approaching them since they might’ve thought I might want to get into their pants. They might have liked the idea, but I wasn’t after that…
View all comments by rick
tosh: you’re right, we are leaving some stuff out for sure. I’m not a writer and not disciplined enough to keep track of the experiences. I can barely keep a list of my close encounters with the p4p kind. Smitty may have a completely different take on this.
rick: we’ve tossed around the idea of having a bloggers night but quite frankly some of you guys scare me. Just kidding, the idea was to help guys meet other guys. Homophobes keep your gay comments to yourself. We’ve done this informally and have seen some good friendships develop. I think we will be doing something at the new Mango. Maybe every Wednesday night or something we will reserve a table.
View all comments by pmmp
Really like the idea for the new bar. As someone who has lived on the soi for 6 years and a frequent customer in the Nana area, it is so obvious that the single biggest change in the naughty nightlife in the past 10 years is the EXPLOSION of the freelancer scene. Its not just saavy local guys who are foregoing the bar fine system and going for freelancers. I know many guys who come to BKK infrequently, but have noticed the deterioration of the gogo gals attitudes and now are strictly freelance guys. As for the ongoing exchange between 2 bloggers about the “gray” area gals, I can tell you that you are both right. MOST office girls, good girls etc. wouldnt be caught dead in such a place, BUT the number of these gals who are crossing over and looking for an occassional increase in their monthly income is increasing rapidly. Ten years ago maybe 1% of those gals would cross over, and today it may be more like 5%. May sound like a small number, but in a city of 12 or 14 million the numbers are HUGE. I have a close female friend who goes to a small university near Bangna(Eastern Bangkok.) I asked her once how many gals in her school ahve been paid for sex and she said “about 30%.” Of course most had a Thai guy as a customer, but this “cross over into the gray area” is taking hold for sure. Best of luck guys!
View all comments by Lee
@ pmmp - understood, that kind of thing isn’t for everyone. But I’m seeing your stories, paired up with an Elmore Leonard ear for dialog and moving people about, and it’s just such a juicy story. Keep it in mind for later, might make you rich and famous
View all comments by tosh
lee - that is my point really. the tweener faction of “noral girls” - getting a little on the side is a trend. The trend is your friend. Can we get these girls but the 1000’s to a bar on soi 4. No I don’t think so - can we get a few overtime by trying to reach them and the girls that know them? I think so and it feels worthwhile to me.
The salons are a goldmine. Ask any bargirl what she is saving money for - either to go to salon school or to work in a salon. Go to the salons and ask what the girls do on their off nights. Many - the cute worldy ones go looking for guys. I will try to subsidize their missions with discounts. Once - again. A few hundred here and there will make the difference and will create a different circuit. That is all we are after. I think some people appreciate the attempt. Hope to see u in the bar sometime.
tosh - I take notes. I also have a friend who wrote a TV pilot around the scene. I have always wanted to write about it but tough to make up some stuff around it or actually just tell it like it is. Reading Reefer Men now and hard to think how to top something like that.
I hear you though - there is a story in here somewhere. I actually left IT to give myself more time to write and learn a language. However then I got into the bar business.
View all comments by smitty
I find it admirable that you are trying to do something for the working girls. I do think that you might experience a slow start in attracting freelancers. I’ll pass by on my next visit to Bangkok and wish you all the luck.
View all comments by hanuman
h - thanks for the support. No doubt it won’t start with a bang but we have some ideas for helping it a long. The point of announcing the strategy is so customers are aware of the priming the pump issue.
View all comments by smitty
I think this is a great idea Smitty and I really hope it all works out. I for one will make it my 1st point of call next time im in Bangkok.
View all comments by Adz
adz - thanks. looking forward to seeing u.
I grew up partially in the almond growing area of california. I remember the old blue diamond commercials. A can a week is all we ask.
I figure one customer and one freelancer at a time. It will build.
View all comments by smitty
I think CheapCreep made some good points, but makes assumptions that may not be valid.
I didn’t get the impression you are looking for RCA-style courtesans, but nice, working class girls who sometimes need a little extra cash for life’s luxuries.
We’re talking about the masseur who jokes as she works over the tourist’s Bangkok-sore feet, ‘I go with you to Wat Po’, the girl on the DVD stall who gives her number to the expat in NBK, maybe the cute 7/11 girl who tells the man buying Marlboros that he’s a handsome man in Thai.
These type of girls are attainable, may well be from Isaan, and contrary to the fallacy, may also be light-skinned, if more authentically Thai looking than the pseudojaps you see at fancy condo developments and on the Skytrain.
The only difficulty is they may not always have the right clothes to go out, and they may not speak English. In that way the Big Mango bar may actually be helping to ‘corrupt’ ‘good girls’ by offering them a chance to get both. But by the same token - the Big Mango didn’t create the ‘grey area’ it is seeking to exploit.
I think if it targets the ‘fresh produce’ that BBK expounded on so eloquently, it will succeed. Attracting the type of girls who look for wealthy Thais and tall, young, good-looking, middle-class white males at places at RCA to mix with the former, is, as CC has suggested, probably unlikely. But does that really matter?
View all comments by Milo
Milo very incisive indeed! There is a HUGE gray area in BKK especially, although outside of BKK its probably difficult to find. I have met gals working in banks, 7-11, MBK, Pratunam, Swensen’s, Starbucks, hotels, gold shops, phone shops, etc. Many are open to meeting westerners, and giving money in exchange for “play” is much more common outside of naughty nightlife places than most guys can fathom. Some ask for money after sleeping together, and some just hint that they are a little short on rent money this month. Many of them IMHO could crossover into freelancing with no qualms if their financial situation dictated it.Just last week I finally managed to get a date with a University gal I had been visiting at her part-time gig at a Japanese restaurant . She has never worked in a bar or nightlife place, but told me in very matter-of-fact fashion that her roommate gets 30k a month from a Japanese guy who visits once a month! Pay for play is deeply ingrained in bangkok! That’s not to say there are not still “good gals” who only go to work/school and return to their parents house and stay in every night. There definately ARE-buy fewer and fewer as time goes by.
View all comments by Lee
Lee - there are some beautiful girls working in Svensons, and KFC - I would love to dine out on them
View all comments by Milo
sounds like you guys are trying to be the next “free lance bar.”
good luck…
“PattayaPete” (old owner of FLB — Free Lance Bar, which he eventually converted to a hostess bar) is taking his 2nd shot at it now with the new beer garden on walking st.
the current owner gave me a run down of why he thinks that’s like trying to pick where lightning will strike… he made some good points on why it’s highly unlikely to work.
but again, i wish you luck, and wanted to pass on one of PattayaPete’s ideas (because i think it’s good): he pays a woman to make massive amounts of som tam, and that’s what he gives away free to the free lancers (along with discounted non-alcoholic drinks). then he sends thai guys to the other known free-lance areas in pattaya, with instructions to explain that there’s a new free-lance area (his beer garden) where they can have free som tam while they’re “hunting.” maybe you could work out a deal with the local som tam cart… give out “chits” to the free lancers, who can use them for som tam, and the cart owner could redeem them for cash in the bar…
if you have a day for a run to pattaya, i’d suggest talking to both FLB owners, new & original.
the new one has pretty good constructive criticism on the difficulties of constructing a FL locale.
the old one is a bright guy who has probably learned from the first failed attempt (failed only in the free-lance sense… his bar was profitable once he converted to a hostess bar) and is slightly ahead of you (time-wise) with his 2nd attempt (beer garden just opened this month).
View all comments by fountainhead
Smitty - glad you’re taking notes. Looked up ‘Reefer Man’ (I’m out of books right now which, like Keith Richards being out of smack, is not pretty) but I think maybe it’s out of print and trading at a MASSIVE premium, as in north of $100. Who is the author?
I was walking home last night, buzzed but not drunk, after an evening of utter boredom and thought ‘Damn, if only I could choose between going to 808 or Rawhide tonight.’ You permanent party lads have all the fun . . .
View all comments by tosh
Smitty: Has BBK asked you for a poker room or poker night yet?
View all comments by bkkris