Yo folks. Picked this nice search term off of the blog the other day coming in from the borg:
find contacts of 3some girls in Thailand
Yeah dude. It is that easy. Type that into google and up pops phone numbers of beautiful Thai girls waiting to satisfy your every 3some need. Get in there.
Hit Santika last night for a couple drinks. I dig the late band there and the eye candy at Santika never lets you down. I am always stunned at the numbers of tables that have only girls and the number of old Thai dudes strolling in with there entourage of young Thai hotties. You gotta love it. The no-smoking policy was in force and it was nice. Saw 2 movie stars and more ass than I could handle. To the white dude who came alone. Never go to Santika without a wingmen. You won’t get anything there going alone. The dude actually thought he could hang with me cause I had 2 girls and did not quite get the they are both with me explanation. Loser.
I must say that American greed and the fallout from the sub-prime mess is ridiculous when you see pompous, overbearing assholes like James Cayne selling everything he can the moment he can. So he runs Bear Stearns into the ground, he was too busy playing bridge like a wannabe Warren Buffet, and then bailed as quickly as possible. I wonder how many other employees got the same chance? Karma will get you James - or is it Dick? Warren must get a chuckle out of all this.
Carry on -
While Thailand is generally safe for foreigners, recent sexual assaults and killings of foreign tourists have prompted embassies to issue warnings and have led to fears among Thai officials that the country’s attractiveness as a tourist destination could suffer. Tourism is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for Thailand, bringing in more than $16 billion last year, accounting for as much as 6 percent of gross domestic product and generating the most jobs of any industry.
So this article from the IHT has been quoted all over the kokosphere but what people are not talking about is the last sentence. Say what you will but without growth in tourism Thailand is screwed.
My takeaway from that quote is the little part that says the tourism industry generates the most jobs out of any industry. I am sure this is with just counting the actual part of the tourism industry that the Thais want to admit to and the part of it that is actually on the books. Meaning the Tourism authority does not like to add in the sex tourists as part of their official figures.
A book published in 1998 with reprints up until 203 called - Guns Girls Gambling Ganja, puts the underground economy in Thailand at around 300-450 billion baht a year. That is an average based over 3 years running from 93-95. In general it is believed by the authors that the numbers would only have gone up given that Thailand has not changed any of the laws that allow the underground economy to thrive.
Besides gambling - guess what the biggest generator of the underground economy is? Prostitution.
With the current crackdown on the nightlife is Thailand once again trying to clean things up and burnish their image somewhat? Maybe but my argument is they cannot just shut it down and expect it to go away without hurting inbound tourism numbers. Once people start to think Thailand is not open for partying they will go to places that are. Thailand won’t make up these numbers in other ways. How could they?
On another recent thread on the blog I had posted this comment:
yes I know the rich are in control and they like it that way. but the little people are hurting and the nightlife/tourism is where most of them make their rent. so look for more girls in the streets and more paint sniffers. could all be easily fixed. expand the nightlife hours, make farang zones and accept bkk for the party/slutty destination that we all know it really is.
One of my friends and frequent contributors to the blog, but declined to say anything this time, said I was all wrong about Bangkok being the party/slutty destination and that plenty of expats live a lifestyle here that has nothing to do with the girls and nightlife. Okay. I give u that but these people are not the economic indicator of the country and they don’t power the underground economy. Tourism does in a big way though.
Thailand is having a hard time competing with China for manufacturing. They have completely missed out on any of the technology waves given internet penetration is quite low - almost as bad as the bandwidth. Their ministry of technology can’t read email so Intel is building their new chip factories in Vietnam. Yes - they are doing well in the Automotive industry but that is a small sector of employment.
Given Thailand’s penchant for bad English instruction they will never get any of the outsourcing business. None of this is to say that some companies are not doing great things in Thailand but none of which will be able to replace any significant drops in tourism. However one can easily see how the Vietnamese who tend to learn more English are excelling in the current technology wave. Bill Gates goes to Vietnam on trips to SE Asia - not Bangkok.
So let’s say Thailand did want to clean things up a bit. They could shutdown all the redlight areas overnight if they really wanted to. It could be done. But where would all the girls go and the other employees feeding off this economy? Go work in hotels? No - they don’t speak English and did not finish school. Go work in the factories - possibly but they won’t be sending as much money home. Point is - everyone knows that if you get rid of a whole sector you have to offer some other way of making money. Thailand has shown no ability to do this in the past so no reason to think it would change now.
They could do somethings to fix tourism though but this would not replace the employment for all the people working in and around the Naughty Nightlife. I am sure the trickle down effect of money generated from the sex biz is enormous. Not just the drinking, barfining, shortiming and so on but the money that guys continue to spend on taking care of girls, their families and essentially supporting multiple households.
Once again though let’s say Thailand did want to clean up and promote more tourism. Many things that could be done but the crackdown and the closing early makes no sense at all if the goal is to promote tourism.
People on holiday should not be told when to go to bed. All over the world governments have figured out that mandatory early closing times do not help business and only promote binge drinking, underground clubs and street activity. However if Thailand is really worried about protecting their own people from drinking, smoking, taking drugs and selling their bodies they could do better about having zones that cater to tourists. They could tell all mothers to watch more Chris Rock so they learn to keep their girls off the pole. We all know that even with the crackdown the Thais still have their spots for drinking and picking up even when the tourists assume everything is closed.
Staying open later would mean more tourists to Thailand and would allow Thailand to properly license clubs and capture more VAT. Forget what the police make and so on - underground activity should be eradicated. What do the Thais want - to see the girls working the streets? Seems to me it is better if there were clubs that were legal, carding people, paying VAT, paying social security and paying withholding tax versus clubs that are just putting money into the pockets of the owners and the police.
Do more to fix the airport and make sure when foreigners land they get good service, don’t get ripped off and get in a metered taxi to their chosen destination. Yes - more taxi talk. Despite what the expats think - tourists regularly get fucked by the taxis.
Fix the silly visa laws and allow people to pay money to Thailand directly to get longer visas. Much like Cambodia does. Hell even charge more for it than Cambodia knowing people are spending more money on visa runs anyway. Thus taking the money out of the underground system of visa runs, border kickbacks and so on.
Sure, this crackdown may all blow over and Thailand will get back to being late night, showing tits and so on but the the inconsistency will take its toll and holiday goers will go to the destinations they know won’t give them so much grief. Then what will Thailand do - become the training capital of the world for foot massage?
Next post will be a joint thesis authored with BigBabyKenny comparing and contrasting taxi scams over the past 25 years with the surging popularity of Texas holdem. Stay tuned…
Great post. I agree 100%. Went to Spicy at 1.30 a.m. last night and it was closed, they told people to go to Boss Club that would stay open till 4 a.m. Well, Boss was packed and closed all of a sudden at 2.45 a.m.
Was in Huahin for some days. There they close the bars at 2 a.m., but have one spot neat the Hilton with bars and Karaoke that goes till 6 a.m. Thailand is crazy.
Yes, the inconsistency with drinking-bans and crackdowns makes Thailand so much less attractive for me as a sex-tourist. Then again, the freelancer I pulled from Boss last night gave me a true GFE. A wonderful 24 yo girl. Just for this experience my present trip was worth it.
Thailand is confusing me. Too sad the government doesn’t want tourists to love their country. I am going to Hilary 2 now to clear my mind with some black-label/coke’s while playing pool. Cheers to a mad country.
View all comments by Phoenix
Thailand confuses me too but I always revert to the bottom line, tons of partying and beautiful women available at a pretty cheap rate.
It’s always been this way in Thailand from what I’ve learned. A cycle of corruption from one administration to the next. It’s almost protocol that when a new administration takes over bars will be closed earlier and new wacky laws will come in to play. That’s how new administrations renegotiate all the corruption their way.
What really confuses me though is that everything is about “face” and “losing face” in this country but they don’t see corrupt behavior as a face loss situation. Instead of being angry at corrupt Police and Politicians for stealing from them and making them look stupid for so easily stealing from them, they show them more respect because they are getting away with it. Bizarre imho.
View all comments by pmmp
You ever watch the cigarette butt Police on Sukhumvit?
They do wonders for Thai Tourism.
They see a Farang smoking and stalk them untill they throw the butt on the filthy sidewalk.
The fine is 2,000thb.
I estimate they fine 6 - 12 Farangs an hour.
Stop and watch them operate sometime. They look like hunters stalking prey, using walkie talkies, cordinating their moves.
Originally, they were put out to there to prevent littering but they work in a sea of filth (placed there by inconsiderate Thais) and focus their attention on the visiting farang.
The anti littering effort turned into another way for the cops to fleece the farang. Disgusting.
Now, I’m all against litter (and smoking) but targeting 100% tourists is just too much.
Don’t get me started in the more recent rise in stopping and searching random farangs all over town..
The Thai Police are out of control.
Tourists should stay away.
View all comments by Khun J
ph - you are the what I call the regular tourist - the kind that keeps coming back. Thailand is blowing it if they think people like you don’t count in the overall stats. I imagine you spend more here than most “normal” tourists. U sum up my point nicely.
kj - saw that whole process in action once on suk. it is disgusting - especially when you see thais dumping shit all the time without anyone fining them. When you see it all in action one wishes you could call the “tourist” police to sort it all out. yeah right…
View all comments by smitty
“Tourism is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for Thailand, bringing in more than $16 billion last year, accounting for as much as 6 percent of gross domestic product and generating the most jobs of any industry.”
I guess they don’t count rice farming and shrimping as a “job” then?
View all comments by John Brown
I also agree with your post 100%. The Thais may not be proud to admit that sex tourism is a large part of the tourism numbers in general, but they’d be foolish to attempt to put an end to it. I don’t know numbers but I’m sure that single, older males with decent income and spending money make up a fair share of tourists. And these men spend a lot of money outside of the naughty nightlife - hotels, food, tours, gifts, money on essentials.
The early and confusing closing times, the unbalanced anti-smoking crackdown, the somewhat confusing visa rules - they all lead people to look elsewhere for their fun and spending money. Tourism is a major contributor to the Thai economy, yet the Thai gov’t seem to do whatever it can to make it less attractive.
TIT - This is Thailand.
I will continue to visit because I love the country, people, and the naughty nightlife. I just hope it doesn’t change too much.
View all comments by calvin
Let’s see.
Once I was in Nakhon Phanom and I broke out my Lonely Planet. Lo and behold, it noted that people had been living on that spot, doing basically the same thing, for 1,000 years.
Thus, I think its funny(:-)) when farang say (or write) Thailand “should” do this or Thailand “should” do that. For whose benefit? Yours?
As far as the economy, maybe you have noticed, but there is a MASSIVE real estate construction boom happening. How many new structures going up in Miami where prices were down about 20% year-over-year?
As far as why where all here, “golden age” or not(not), I really think the nightlife’s days are numbered. It’s a shadow of what it was ten years ago. Asoke corner gone. Soi zero gone. Clinton gone. Chuwit garden gone. No nudity. Minimal freelancers.
Would you guys really go to Santika, the Pent, etc. and drop all that coin if u could get what u came for at the wall (like the way it used to be; jes*s, i sould like my father).
Anyway, I give it three years (but a sad three years). Thank buddha I took up golf in a big way. But who knows, despite rumors to the contrary, they’re putting in that new escalator at Nana. Then again, I guess the escalator would be just as handy when the Plaza is (yikes) all Indian tailor shops…
View all comments by Mr. Kotter
The IHT assessment is a hysterical reading of the stats. Thailand would do alright without tourism. It is the world’s biggest rice exporter, and prices are rising. And automotive industries make up a much larger share of the GDP than tourism.
Tourism won’t make or break Thailand. It’s just pocket money for the rich, and a quick buck for rice farmers who are sick of the farm. It’s been a significant economic force for little more than a decade. When the TAT started counting in 1994, the country saw only 6 million foreign visitors, mostly from bordering countries.
Sure, it would sting if tourism totally disappeared, but every single Thai of voting age can remember when the country did just fine without it.
It only seems important to those who rarely make it outside of the tourist areas.
View all comments by MrLucky
@Kotter: Hang on…
Not withstanding the fact that the few decent bars once located in the above areas have long since relocated anyway, a counterexample is soi 7/1, which has turned from a quiet dead end into a whole new nightlife area.
The old Sukhumvit 1 Plaza bars (who were mostly Soi Zero refugees) are beginning to re-open on Soi 13, as another example. Granted, 13 sucks right now, but new areas are definitely appearing to replace the ones that closed.
You’re joking, right?
How many is ‘minimal’? Gullivers, Soi 7 Biergarten, New Wave, Thermae, Nana Disco, Spice Club and QBar are all full of freelancers, and that’s just in the lower Sukhumvit area, without even counting the girls on the streets and in the Nana Hotel car park.
The nightlife isn’t going to disappear anytime soon. And if it ever did, we’d just turn up on the Thai scene, which isn’t going to get shut down by anyone.
View all comments by TAFKABBB
I know that I will be spending half of my next vaction in the Phillipines. I don’t think it’s better just want to check there’s no where better I should be.
View all comments by Young Royal
if the government does not realise by closing early.it will affect many people, bars lives.these tourist bring money to thailand that will just go elsewhere.phnom penh not far away
View all comments by geoff davies
There are couple of other ideas that I have found very useful in wrapping my head around Thailand.
First, most Thai’s including upper class Thai’s and especially the Thai’s in positions of power have very little exposure to the outside world. Most have not travelled extensively outside Asia and if they have travelled they stayed only a short time and only did the tourist thing. Upper class Thais have no idea that there is a bigger better world out there they might benefit from emulating.
Second, the Thai university system is inbred. Unlike India and Japan where most of the University professors have PhD’s from good universities in the United States or England, most Thai University professors were trained in Thailand.
What was taught and is being taught to the current and future leaders of Thailand is 50 years old schlock that has been passed through two or three generations of Thai professors and is outdated, garbled, and bears little resemblance to a modern western university education.
You can understand why economic policy in Thailand is so fucked up because the Thai’s making the decisions don’t know any economics and, generally, have no way of learning any.
To us it seems self-evident that if the government adopted clear, stable, and fairly enforced rules for the nightlife industry everybody except the bribe takers would be better off.
Bar owners would be willing to make bigger investments in their bars knowing that they will be able to get back their investment plus profit in the future.
Tourism would increase because foreigners would have certainty about what entertainment is available and there would be more and more interesting venues for them to patronize.
Prices would fall because the cost of corruption would not have to be recouped.
Thai’s, in general would be better off because there would be more tourists, more spending, more jobs, etc.
But explaining that the total financial benefits to such a policy would far outweigh the money the police and government bureaucrats currently skim from the current setup to anyone in power who matters is pretty much a lost cause.
Like I said in an earlier post, the system sucks for Thai’s but a side effect is to make the Thailand Girl Scene great for us.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
Decent post, but obviously biased in favor of loosening restrictions on naughty nightlife. Is the author a bar owner? (Sorry if I’m clueless, I don’t read this blog often.)
The fact is — even with all the annoyances and restrictions, when it comes to love (not just sex!) for sale, Thailand simply doesn’t have any competition that comes close. They could close all the bars in Pattaya at 11 pm — the draw for the peculiar type of tourist would still be there.
Where else is there to go? Sex can be bought in Germany or Singapore for not much more than 1500 baht per short time. In some other destinations such as Cambodia, Phil or some Latin American holes it may well be cheaper, but the places are thoroughly unpleasant or dangerous.
It’s the normal tourists that respond strongly to minor details (e.g. a murder or two). Short of Thailand becoming a war-zone, the sex tourists will keep coming… not that it’s a bad thing.
View all comments by crocodile
Respectfully, Mr. Baby, while everything you say is true, I think you are interpreting what you see from far too western a point of view and thus missing the real significance of it.
Thais are remarkably unsophisticated about the world beyond Thailand and the Thai university system is indeed insular and inbred, but that is not by accident or for lack of opportunities to make it otherwise. Insularity is what many if not most Thais want. I have said it over and over for two decades: these folks really don’t like us foreigners very much and they don’t want to be anything like us. Oh, they would like to have our material goods, of course, but that’s about it. Otherwise, the notion that Thais are unique and special and should not mix with foreigners any more than they absolutely have to is what drives nearly everything in this culture.
Yesterday in the Post business section I noticed an utterly innocuous piece about yet more new condos being built in Bangkok. In illustration of the point I’m making here, I quote part of the very first line in the story…
“Two property developers, each owned by Thai-nationality foreigners, are continuing their investment in the Bangkok property market…”
‘Thai-nationality foreigner?’ Give me a fucking break. Can you imagine the New York Times casually referring to ‘American-nationality Chinese?’ Even in their most casual comments, Thais always make it clear that foreigners are different from them, even those who are actually Thai citizens. Your nationality doesn’t matter here. All that matters is who your parents were.
The whole idea of being Thai is fundamental a racial concept. Of course, being Chinese or Korean or Japanese is also a racial concept, but those cultures engage with the world at such a high level both economically and culturally that they are able to maintain their racial identity while functioning as a part of the rest of the world.
Thais can’t do that. They have little to offer the rest of the world and would rapidly be overwhelmed by engaging closely with it. What’s more, these people who you are referring to, Mr. Baby, understand that very well. Engagement and education means loss of power for them, therefore they have consciously chosen to disengage and defend their backward little patch from the encroachment of foreign ideas no matter what the ultimate cost to the country might be.
It’s just that simple, really. They don’t WANT foreign ideas or concepts in Thailand. They don’t want to be better or smarter or more sophisticated than they are now. And, honestly, they don’t want you or me here either. If you can’t accept that, you will never understand why things happen in Thailand as they do.
View all comments by Old Asia Hand
OAH,
What I write only applies to upper class Thai’s–the one’s with money who are living well with a lifestyle to protect.
Talk to the average Joe Thai who works 10 hours a day six days a week assembling circuit boards in a dirty hot unsafe factory in Rayong for 300 THB per day or the intelligent beautiful TG with jai dee with severely proscribed marriage prospects because her father is a farmer and they will be all about promoting tourism, foreign investment, and letting Big Whitey into Thailand because it would benefit them personally.
The insularity, racism, and isolationism you talk about is restricted to the well off and privileged.
The normal Thai’s are the ones who love and welcome foreigners and make Thailand such a joy to experience.
The recent elections and political turmoil are an offshot this dichotomy.
The rich Thai’s just can’t wrap their heads around the idea that the “uneducated masses” are a lot smarter and more saavy than they can imagine.
In a one man one vote democracy, they keep voting for the guy who represents them not the full of themselves ruling elite who has been screwing the common man all these years.
They have an election and the rich and privileged don’t like the result so they have a coup and get rid of the government and have another election where the same guy gets re-elected and they look like a bunch of idiots–which they are!
Rich privileged Thai’s remind me of a communist dictator who can’t believe the average Joe sees through his bullshit and just can’t believe they are not beloved by the masses they are oppressing.
OAH, I don’t share your pessimism and attitude toward Thailand.
Stop hanging around with the Hi Soi Thai’s and get down in rice paddies with the average Thai. Not only will the banging be better but you will find a lot of nice people to spend your old age with and have a lot of fun–unless like the rich Thai’s you are too old and set in your thoughts and thinking to change your ways.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
This is good reading today, do they also want all the Thai’s around the world to come home? OAH.
When I was younger I was always suprised/shocked about the number of foreigners in my country (UK). Then I thought about the amount of British people in other countries and thought no more of it.
I really don’t think they all hate us. I’m not talking about the ones who are taking money loving us. I know their more than a little xenophobic at times, but am I the only one who gets the impression that the general public quite like us (American and British)?
View all comments by Young Royal
Big Baby - “Stop hanging around with the Hi Soi Thai’s and get down in rice paddies with the average Thai.”
…This kind of class warfare posturing is both boring and ridiculous as well as more than a little naive. What I said was that you were interpreting Thailand purely through western attitudes and were thus off the mark. You have just underlined my point. Leave your western political attitudes at home if you really do want to understand what happens here, which I’m not sure you do. You seem to be having far more fun twisting it around to fit the judgments you brought with you.
Young Royal - “I really don’t think they all hate us.”
…Please don’t turn around what I said and then disagree with it. On the other hand, I have to admit that you’re hardly alone in doing that. Nearly every time I say to somebody ‘they don’t really like us very much,’ somebody else responds ‘I don’t think they hate us?’ How can I put the thought more clearly than I already have? Don’t you see the difference?
View all comments by Old Asia Hand
OAH, I won’t go on the books as to agree with you 100%, but you got it about 99% IMHO..
Well said post.
View all comments by John Brown
well - say what u all will but it is a good discussion. Which is all I care about.
The numbers you all quote for the automotive and agriculture are not that big.
tourism 6% of GDP
agriculture 10% of GDP
Automotive 11% of GDP
so tourism is not like an ugly step child of GDP here.
As far as employees in each sector:
tourism 32.7 % of the workforce
agriculture 46.2 % of the workforce
automotive - which is in the overall industry sector is 21.1 % of the workforce. So much smaller than tourism.
None of this probably takes into account any of the underground economy or the fact that tourism jobs generally pay more than anything in either sector. Even some skilled labor probably does not generate the same income as a bargirl or a hotel manger.
Also - kotter. I am not just talking the sex biz. Talking tourism in general. Yes - normal tourists party and not around nana. And a lot of them are getting pissed off at the clubs closing at 12 or 1. Why do adults need a curfew?
The nightlife is not just sex biz related. Go to sing, hk or KL. Massive nightlife, clubs, bars and so on. Sure bkk will clean up but it also need to have world class nightlife if it expects to be a world class city. So clean it up but make it open for replacing it with something. curfews and a dearth of clubs or thai only places won’t replace that. Nor will it employ as many.
I don’t see how the property market is any barometer since all asian capitals are in a building boom mostly fueled by the rich and the period of cheap capital. Are not foreigners buying these places as well? Will they continue to do so if they don’t like coming to Thailand anymore?
They say already pattaya is hurting from the current blitz and most likely will have an even slower slow season next time around. Maybe it is just part of the pattaya clean up.
funny thing is now that the thai, the rich ones, who own and use the member clubs are also bitching since the current clampdown is cutting into their nightlife as well. talked in detail to a thai business guy the other night at santika about how the current push is pissing off the locals more than they expected it to. to what benefit may I ask is this to anyone? seems silly.
of course anything around here when looked at closely might seem silly.
either way. interesting discussion.
View all comments by smitty
This is all very entertaining. Laws not enforced uniformly, scams, corrupt & incompetent govt, coups, xenophobic Thais & the reliance on tourism. Takes me back 30 years. The same themes in all likelihood will be just as current in 30 years time.
View all comments by Wombat
*nods*
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
View all comments by TAFKABBB
Good article, excellant comments:
Now if only the $ would…………………..
Where the hell is Santika?
When do you expect Mango 2 to open? I’ll be in-country mid-July.
TTFN
View all comments by laocowboy
Yeah, you’re right. Real estate is no barometer of economic performance.
View all comments by Mr. Kotter
Very good posts…..thank you guys for the reads. However, Pmmp explains my coping policy. …”the bottom line, tons of partying and beautiful women available at a pretty cheap rate.” So as long as they keep paying me well I will show up and tolerate the bullshit. Thats my cost benifit analysis.
View all comments by Jay Edwards
k - sorry. I knew you would only pick one item and ignore the rest but anyway. My point was they build here right through everything based on easy capital, rich developers and so on. My point was a lot of foreigners are the ones buying as well cause they like the place as a tourist destination.
I think thailand was building like mad before the bust too.
View all comments by smitty
just a thought but the writers of this blog appear to be negative on thailand, the government, tourism and night life. But just a few blogs earlier they are writing about investing in a bar in the night life and tourism industry in thailand. Conflicting?
View all comments by MSB
msb - i don’t get why people think discussing the issues as they are is positive or negative. It just it what it is. I was just stating how they crackdown on nightlife will lose tourists but then they will debate endlessly why they lose tourists.
how is what we are doing conflicting? I am not negative on thailand. freaking love the place but do u expect me to like every decision of the inept government? Love the nightlife but I think cracking down on it is stupid. Tourism. I think my whole post was about how it is a huge driver of the economy and i think they are messing with it too much. So do a lot others.
The blog is what it is. A view of what we deal with both as business people, lovers of the nightlife and general commentators on life in bkk.
I really don’t get why bringing up topics that a lot of people seem to have an opinion on is such a bad thing?
I just threw an opinion out. crucify me.
reader submissions accepted at any time. so write something up with a different point of view. happy to publish it.
View all comments by smitty
A lurker since a while, this discussion has made me come out :o)
I have extensively written on the issues brought up here on some of the most popular Thai based boards and more than once got suspended/banned for it…
I am not sure I am ready to do it again so at this time just wanted to say that I am 99% with OAH :o)
This from a Thai speaking ex-long time stayer of several year sociologist.
Ciao and keep the discussion going guys…
View all comments by BAF
baf - comment away. not a playground here so u won’t get banned. we don’t tolerate personal attacks but welcome the discussion. hell - write up a reader submission.
don’t agree with OAH.
he does not know what the hell he is talking about.
View all comments by smitty
I have an UNINFORMED thought to offer on this.
My thought is that there may be a desire among the people in power (presumably the new PPP-led government based on the timing of events) to change Thailand in a way that most readers of this blog site don’t want to see it change.
In America, a politician who said that he was going to clean up the red light districts in the city would generally be applauded, and most good citizens would think that it was a no-brainer.
It could very well be that the Thais making the decisions are a bit smarter than we want to give them credit for.
If they strictly enforce the closing hours, increase the number of no-alcohol days, ban smoking in pubs, etc then it may be that the result will be exactly what they want. Tourism will take a hit, but only a certain percentage of the industry. It’s not gonna drive away the temple tourists, SCUBA divers or most backpackers. It’s gonna drive the tourists who come primarily for the nightlife to self-select a new destination. Tourism may actually decline, but a politician might be hoping that it will stagnate overall, with the primary effect being a change in the mix of foreigners coming to Thailand as ‘normal’ tourists replace the falling numbers of sex tourists.
I suspect that if I were a Thai politician taking the long view I’d see the opportunity to look good to my constituents. My strategy would be to pass laws that look like they benefit the population in general, but which have the effect of encouraging a type of tourist I don’t like to go pee in someone else’s yard. Fewer sex tourists reduce demand for bar girls & freelancers; the sex industry starts drying up from lower demand, but it happens over a number of years with minimal pain.
Do it during relatively good economic times, when other business sectors are growing.
Viewed from my point of view as a sex-tourist, the policies and enforcement seem stupid and self-defeating. Viewed from the standpoint of a local politician they might well seem brilliant.
View all comments by werewolf
ww - great comment. as usual u sum it up better than I do. I am just a curator of discussions.
I think I am confused as to why they can’t grow tourism and kill the sex trade at the same time. the late night stuff catches more than mongers though since all the clubs are not full of mongers but people partying. thailand can’t be a world class tourist destination is wants to be and make up for the lack of sex tourists by closing early. that’s just my feeling and not sure what curfews are good for? For sure it does not affect the locals. so why bother the tourists.
great addition. thanks
View all comments by smitty
BAF-
Welcome to the Last Safe Refuge for Real Conversations about Thailand. Nobody gets tossed here for what they think.
I’ve been banned from TV twice myself, the first time for ’saying negative things about Thailand’ and the second time for refusing a demand that I apologize for saying that the coup was an embarrassment foisted on Thailand by a bunch of illiterate farmers with bad haircuts. Okay, maybe I was being a little harsh about the haircuts, but…..
Anyway, like you, I’m a long stayer, too. Darn near twenty years now. Since they don’t give out Purple Hearts for that around here, although maybe they should, I figure at the very least it ought to entitle guys like you and me to shoot off our mouths a little sometimes, huh?
View all comments by Old Asia Hand
been reading through the comments…as a foreigner there’s no real way to determine what’s going on inside the minds of all thais (hi-so, lo-so, so-so, whatever).
unless you were born and raised here yourself - the whacky things they do, the people they vote for, the coups, alcohol bans, corruption, nightlife crackdown, face, etc will not make sense to an outsider.
even as a long time expat (ex: stick) you may have a better understanding but a full firm grasp of the culture and people? probably not.
imagine a normal thai moving to the US, UK, AU, etc at age 30-40ish and becoming an expat there. will they integrate into society? possibly. will they have a full understanding of american/british/australian culture and why things are done the way they are? doubt it.
View all comments by anon
@Smitty: not sure where you got your statistics
“tourism 32.7 % of the workforce
agriculture 46.2 % of the workforce
automotive - which is in the overall industry sector is 21.1 % of the workforce.”
but that number for tourism seems rather high. Aren’t you referring to ’services’, which includes every restaurant, shopping mall, 7-11, and corner karaoke den?
Here’s how the CIA world factbook sees it:
agriculture: 49%
industry: 14%
services: 37%
And also remember, ‘tourism’ covers both domestic and overseas tourists. Overseas tourists make up only 17% of total tourism in Thailand (TAT stats). The rest is Thais visiting other parts of their own lovely country.
So, even if we were to take your number as gospel, only 5.6% of the workforce would involved in overseas tourism. It’s probably far less.
View all comments by MrLucky
Werewolf well said. So long as Thailand stays cheap and SAFE for tourist then its rep as a good tourist destination well stay intact.
As far as sex tourist are concerned, anybody have some numbers on roughly what percentage of Thailand tourist would fall under this category?. Name another place for sex tourist to go that is nearly as safe and cheap OR with a scene so well set up as Thailand. Are bars closing a few hours early going to turn S.T to go somewhere else in South East Asia? I cant see it.Unless they start throwing tourist in jail for being drunk and fucking hookers I will keep on trucking.
View all comments by yesman
Should be easy to get a number on sex tourists – just count the number of male tourists who return after their first visit.
View all comments by MrLucky
“The CIA Fact Book.”
That’s funny.
I like that.
Is there a better oxymoron?
View all comments by Mr. Kotter
OAH - I agree with almost everything you say, just thought you were a tad negitive thats all. Good reading though.
View all comments by Young Royal
@ anon - as “a long time expat (ex: stick) you may have a better understanding but a full firm grasp of the culture and people? probably not.”
Guess what, I’ll clue ya - it doesn’t make sense to the average Thai either.
OAH - Agreed
Jobs in Agriculture - Let’s get this straight people - a job in the paddy end of the rice business means you’re on or below the poverty line - compare that to a maid in a three star hotel - get real.
@ww - you were doing well until “a Thai politician taking the long view ”
Chill out everyone - you’ll all be dead and buried or burned before Thailand loses the sex industry.
My take on all this - it’s entertainment. Thai politicians understand the cconcept of word bytes and have taken it to new heights - here, we get “policy bytes” - anything to grab a few headlines and divert attention away from the real business of making sure that your next generation gets to do it again.
View all comments by psi100th
I’m a bit surprised at some of the comments about the crackdown on naughty nightlife and/or closing times. It may well be that the Thais do not want to have their country seen as the world’s brothel. This may be somewhat hypocritical given the size of the industry for male Thais, but that section is far less visible to outsiders.
I can only go by my own experience of dating a Thai girl in this country (the UK). Within a few days of it becoming common knowledge at work, rumours were spreading as to what she did for a living and I think you can guess what the consensus was. Friends also asked me where I had met her before commenting maybe it was a massage parlour (being real courageous this was always out of her earshot).
Chatting with her, however, she was fully aware that as a very attractive young Thai lady, this tended to be the assumption a lot of Westerners would automatically make about her. I dare say most other Thais living or staying in the West come across this attitude and given their love of their country must be utterly embarrassed about the whole thing.
As to closing times in general, I hardly think that most politicians anywhere in the world would not care what tourists think. They can’t vote! Here supposed 24 hour licences were introduced a couple of years ago. However, most local councils enforce midnight or 1am closures on pubs. As most people do not think that this has stopped the alcohol related violence or binge drinking that it was meant to cut, there is now huge pressure on the government to backtrack. It seems that there is a negative story about drinking on an almost daily basis on the BBC.
However, I don’t think once have I heard anyone suggest that the problems should be ignored because a tourist may want a pint at three in the morning. The average Brit disgusted at the state of their High Street at midnight could not care less what a tourist may think. I don’t suppose most Thais are any different.
View all comments by Sarf Essex Taff
The thai baht is killing the textile industry, and believe me, everybody buys clothes in one form or another. I spend decent money when I come to Thailand, but I do not know how long I can deal with the textile prices. So there may go my tourist spend! Fixing the baht was one of the first problems. The girls will always be there, and so will I. Thailand will not die, the circle of events just turns a lot quicker. If you’re not getting on in BKK, come to switzerland/France for a reality check. Its S**T!
View all comments by auk
WW,
What you write ties into the thesis in Understanding Thailand and The Smoking Ban.
http://www.2thebigmango.com/reader-submissions/2008/03/15/understanding-thailand-and-the-smoking-ban-by-bigbabykenny/
The rich, privileged, and powerful Thai’s did not get and do not maintain their income, wealth, and lifestyle in what we would consider normal business.
Their money and power derives from controlling the government and its institutions.
They get their money from using the government to create a monopoly which they sell the right to, e.g. the cell phone franchise, bar licenses, import barriers and tariffs, etc., having the government spend money and leeching off a portion of it in graft, e.g. building a new airport or subway line and corrupting the bidding process, or creating a law and selling selective enforcement, e.g. bar closing times, smoking restrictions, nudity restrictions, motorcycle helmet laws etc.
If the nightlife industry and tourism tubed, it wouldn’t adversely affect the rich and powerful because, except for the police, tourism is not the main source of their money.
If the nightlife industry tubed, the one’s who would be hurt would be the average everyday Thai and their families who work in tourist related jobs—and what incentive is there for rich and powerful Thai’s to care about them in a non-democracy?
So if you are a rich powerful Thai who gets offended by what he sees driving by Nana, Soi Cowboy, and Patpong you can get rid of it without cost to yourself and ignore the economic wreckage it would cause to the peons in the lower classes being supported by it.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
Great and in-depth discussion so far.
WW is right that crackdowns on the sex-industry are usually welcomed by the citizens of most countries. Ok, no more lesbian shows at Suzie Wong, no more BJ’s at Afterskool and no more dart-shooting at Big Gunn .
(Side-note: The funny thing is many Thais may know of the existence of the red-light zones but I estimate that probably 95% of all Thais do not know the above described details, so how can they feel offended by that? Was the bad-boy corner at Afterskool ever an issue in the Bangkok Post or somehow effected by the recent crackdown?).
The recent crackdown is mainly about closing hours, including all venues, not only the “bad” Gogo’s and alike. Was in Santika last Friday till 12.30 a.m. and was told by the bouncer that they will close between 1 and 1.30 a.m. The Thais are pissed-off too, because all their venues are also effected by the crackdown.
My point is that in most Western and - more importantly - also most Asian countries (like China, Japan, the Philippines,…) you also have closing hours: Roughly 1-2 a.m. for bars and 5-6 a.m. for clubs.
So if they would close the Gogo’s and bars at 1. or 2 a.m. in Thailand and let the clubs stay open till 5 or 6 a.m. it would just be the most normal thing to do.
Clean up the place but get some normal closing hours as most of Thailand’s Asian neighbors have them already. That’s all I am asking for.
View all comments by Phoenix
auk - thanks for chiming in auk. maybe you could spell out how bad it is but people keep harping on thailand land of the export - well folks I work with a plastics exporter and the strong baht is killing his business. no one is buying thai right now with the baht the way it is and if they do they are buying less of it and the profit margins are way down. some factories are laying people off to get by. so to me tourism is pretty damn important to the little guy in thailand.
ph - that is my point. killing the sex biz should not go hand in hand with wacking nights out for paying tourists. go to ny - a huge locals and tourism city. clubs stay open. big deal. if thailand wanted to clean up the red light areas they easily could. they could also get rid of any red light activity outside of red light areas. so they could clean up and fix tourism at the same time.
i dont agree with all of bbk but I do agree that rich thais are completely disconnected from reality and for many households - tourism and the sex biz is paying the bills.
View all comments by smitty
Smitty,
I think you are selling the Thailand Girl Scene short.
Without TG’s there would be no nightclubs and nightlife in Thailand and there wouldn’t be much tourism.
What clubs can you name that don’t exist because there are hordes of TG’s either employed or freelancing?
Except for the Thai only clubs at RCA and Rachada I can’t think of a single one.
The next time you go to a restaurant in Silom, Sukhumvit, MBK, etc. and look around at the farangs, keep a running percentage of the number of lone men, families, and western women. I think you will find that there aren’t many real “tourists” in Thailand. Most tourists are men here alone or with other men and they are in Thailand for the women—in one form or another.
You can perform a related experiment and list all the tourist attractions in Thailand. It is a pretty short list.
If you ever go to the reclining gold Buddha in Bangkok or to Ayuthaya, they aren’t exactly overrun with western tourists.
Do the same thing on Expedia and search for hotels in Pattaya and Phuket and compare it to the number of hotels in Chiang Mai, Hua Hin, etc. You will find that for every hotel in a non-nightlife area there are 9 hotels in the area where there are TG girls available.
Without the girls, there is no Thai tourist industry.
The rich Thai’s can kill the nightlife industry because they don’t care about the Thai’s it supports, but IMHO it is wishful thinking that the men coming to Thailand for the Girl Scene will be replaced by someone else.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabKenny
@BBK:
In Bangkok alone, hundreds if not thousands. You might want to explore a little further outside the farang scene on your next trip over here
This (killing the nightlife industry) absolutely will not happen. They may eventually try to kill the 5% or so of the nightlife that the farangs use, but they’ll never kill the Thai-for-Thai scene.
In this situation, the “farang scene” (gogo bars, beer bars, FL clubs) will be replaced by the Thai scene (soapies, g-clubs, etc).
Some might say this is already happening…
View all comments by TAFKABBB
TAFKABBB,
Maybe I didn’t write precisely enough.
What clubs can you name that are supported by tourists that would exist if there weren’t TG’s employed or freelancing there and men there to match with them?
Every non-Thai only venue is filled with foreign men looking for TG’s and exists as a place where foreign men can go to match with TG’s.
I can’t name a single major venue supported by non-sex related tourists.
Silom, Sukhumvit, Khao San Road, and Thong Lo are the areas where the foreigners and tourists are and the clubs, bars, and restaurants there are filled with men who came to Thailand sans women.
Of course the Thai only businesses will continue without tourism, but the tourism supported businesses won’t have any customers without the men coming to Thailand for the women.
Thai elites can blather on about how wonderful and interesting Thai culture, life, and history are but to the non-Thai Thailand is just not that interesting and it is not that big a draw.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
@BBK: Perhaps neither of us were sufficiently precise.
I’m not really into the farang nightclub scene, but I take your point. The girls, by and large, follow the tourists, although it’s obviously a symbiotic relationship.
If tourists started flocking en masse to the grungy open-all-night (yes, even during the crackdown) Thai karaoke bars, then I suggest that at least some FLs would follow.
And this is my point, which nobody is addressing.
Sex tourists will go where the girls are. And there’s not going to be a shortage of girls any time soon, no matter how early Sukhumvit Soi 4 closes.
If the gogo bars closed down permanently tomorrow, would the ex-pats all go home? I certainly wouldn’t, and I don’t know anyone who would. We’d simply move to the Thai scene.
And in a few weeks time, the ‘Kokosphere would be abuzz with talk of which Thai establishment had the cutest girls, the cheapest beer, etc etc.
The forums would be discussing soapies instead of gogo bars. And next high-season, the sex tourists would be staying in the hotels around Rachada instead of Soi 4.
They won’t stop coming to Thailand unless Thailand has no brothels. And given that only 19% of Thai men HAVEN’T slept with a prostitute in the past 6 months*, that’s not going to happen any time soon.
* http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/reader/reader291.html
View all comments by TAFKABBB
TAFKABBB,
I get your point.
I wrote something similar awhile ago.
http://www.2thebigmango.com/?p=518
“This line of thought might lead one to despair for the future of the Thailand girl scene but do not forget that people are intelligent, creative and history is replete with examples of people avoiding or finding some way of neutralizing the predations of a corrupt government.
I believe this has already happened in Thailand.
Most of us know that the best TG’s, the most TG’s, and the best prices and terms in the TG market are not found at Beerbars and GoGo’s.
Beerbars and GoGo’s are fine for the clueless tourist with a 3 day Bangkok vacation or for simply dropping into and looking at the girls, but most of us with a little experience and more time to spend in Thailand find their TG’s in other venues and locations.
I have no personal knowledge, but I would be willing to bet that most of Smitty and pmmp’s TG friends are freelancers they met at venues outside Nana, Soi Cowboy, or Patpong. Like any intelligent, knowledgeable farang, including myself, they meet their TG’s where quality and price is best—-the Freelancer Market.
The great feature about the Freelancer Market is that there is no way for the police to extort it, the government to tax or regulate it, or an unrestrained landlord to divert its income stream.
If the police showed up at Gullivers, the Beergarten, or the Thermae, and their extortionate demands force their closing, the girls and the farangs would just move down the street to another bar and the market would continue to operate as before. Sure the owners of these places would be worse off, but the girls and the farangs would be unaffected.
I believe most of the Girl Scene has already migrated out of the Beerbars and GoGo’s into the Freelancer Market and the Freelancer Market has spread so that it covers Bangkok like a fine layer of dust in an old house. TG’s who want to bang farangs can be found at Pantip Plaza, MBK, Sukhumvit outside the Thermae, and up and down Rachada.
Happily there is no way for the police or the Thai government to outlaw, tax, or even regulate these venues. They will continue to exist and thrive no matter what the Thai government or police do and IMHO are as healthy dynamic and fun to participate in as they ever were and will continue to be so into the foreseeable future.”
I wonder though how the newbie will learns his way around the Thailand Girl Scene without starting out at Nana, Soi Cowboy, and Patpong.
Even with Nana and Soi Cowboy, it took me awhile to wrap my head around the reality that these super hotties would go home and bang me to oblivion for $40 and not expect anything else from me except the money.
That the same hottie would kill to be my loyal and devoted girlfriend.
And that there are dozens of girls just as hot and just as sweet and nice, each different and unique in their own way who are willing to do the same.
I still have a hard time wrapping me head around the fact that the Thailand Girl Scene exists.
Personally, it took me quite awhile to figure how to find freelance working TG’s and normal everday TG’s, talk to them, and get some action from them outside of the Beerbars and GoGo’s.
I’ve been with quite a few guys that struggle at the Thermae, Beirgarten Soi 7, and Gullivers until someone explains what is going on or through trial and error they figure out what to do.
Learning Thailand is sort of like when the starship Enterprise goes into orbit around a strange planet, the universal translator won’t work on the native language, the aliens have three heads, four arms, six eyes, and have weird impossible to understand customs.
BigBabyKenny
View all comments by BigBabyKenny
Most farang tourists I know in the uk have a few days in BKK, then float down to the islands or beach resorts. So these tourists have never spent money on the TG’s. Therefore, I do not believe the tourist industry will die. A lot of the single farang I know, now go further afield after a few days in BKK, and I don’t mean Pattaya. As someone said earlier, the girls are allover Thailand. What bothers me is where there is good business, there will always be a ready supply of businessmen wanting to spend money.The Thai infustry is what would bother me. China controls thailand, china is up to its eyes in product, america is in the doldrums, and Thailand falls at the bottom of the heap. If Thaialnd could sort its economy out, no one could care a tuppence about the nightlife. Smitty, tuppence is an english word with two meanings!
View all comments by auk
Even if Nana and Cowboy would be torn down I would still go to Thailand if the closing times of bars and pubs would be as mentioned in my comment above. I also crave the freelancer scene and this mainly means clubs and after-hour joints to me. If they stay open till the morning hours I will always return to LOS, because like BBK said, there will always be tons of freelancers in Thailand and without them many tourists wouldn’t come… but that will not happen in this millennium I assume. And with freelancers I have had my best experiences so far.
But yes, you must sometimes understand the game a bit, to really enjoy yourself with them. For my next trip I plan to explore more the RCA and other Thai venues. I don’t expect a pull every night, but from my one and only visit my visit to Santika I see a new universe out there for me to explore. It will be more challenging than to try a pull from Spicy but that is rather a turn-on for me. Gosh, the girls at Santika were so hot, eye-candy everywhere.
The true hotties are really outside the Farang getthos. Thailand never stops to be interesting if you keep on digging. So please Thailand, give the Thais and Farang normal closing hours. Otherwise my next ticket might say “Manila”.
View all comments by Phoenix
It is a very simple equation. Thailand doesn’t need the night life industry any more to survive economically. Full stop. 80% of all tourist dollars are spent between Samui and Phuket anyway. Fact. And Bangkok is building itself up as an eating and shopping city now so it also doesn’t need the night life to survive on a tourist level.
So the only people that will suffer from the loss of nightlife venues are the sub-classes that exist within it and the foreigners that thrive on it.
Yes, it does mean that the division of wealth in this country will become slightly more unbalanced again, but only within a certain subclass and the influential people don’t care. The way the rich Bangkok people see it, the Esan sex workers can go back to being poor in the villages, they don’t want them part of Bangkok society anyway. They don’t care what happens to them and they never did. They rather not see them walking around in Paragon with a foreigner just becuase he has too much money and not enough sense not to bring them there.
Many x-pats who read forums like this and who thrive on the sex life of cource take a stance in favor of the night life and come up with all sorts of excuses why it all can’t be shut down. It’s all a self fulfilling prophecy. Thailand and Bangkok in particular is investing way too much in infrastructure, technology, shopping malls and airports to let it go on much longer. It doesn’t fit the developmetn profile.
You can quote me on this and it will all be gone within a few years. The girls wont disappear, they will still crawl the streets, offer themselves through restaurants, hotels, in-call services, and on the internet and some will end up in massage parlors which will all sustain, but raunchy bars will cease to exist and the “One Night in Bangkok” image will be gone. It’s inevitable. It’s part of social development.
The only thing stopping it from happening now is probably the few police stations like Lumpini and Thonglor that benefit from the go-gos, but eventually their revenue streams will be shifted to other venues so that they are not so impacted when it all comes to a screeching halt.
We are not far away now and you just might get to watch history in the making.
View all comments by Cheapolay
cl - great summation. I tend to agree but no way in hell will it be a smooth transition. The paper today was talking about how much money is in isaan from remittances and farangs who have married, mostly bar girls, and have built up many of the small towns. anyway - I don’t think they can easily turn off the sex biz spigots without some ramifications. THat’s all.
For sure, even the last round of head police jobs, the big guys paid in the millions of USD for their gigs. They want that paid back somehow. The push and pull with the police will be a huge issue and will at the same time make cleaning up the nightlife a problem.
Okay so BKK builds itself into a world class city and cleans up. Sure. Might be possible but world class citys don’t go to bed early and they do not let the police arbitrage away the quality of nightlife. NOt hk, not sing, not kl, not tokyo and not ny. So I think there are quite a bit of years ahead for this all to come to a head but history is in the making and look for the freelancer market to hit the turbo.
View all comments by smitty
Also, pretty unlikely you will ever see a laxing in the issuing of longer term non-immigrant visa and short-term multiple-entry tourist visas again either.
With the view on foreigners as having them either coming here on 2-3 week high dollar vacations to the islands, with 2-3 days in Bangkok for shopping and 2-3 days in Chiang Mai for some northern crafts, there is little reason to make things easier for the foreigners that exist here on the fringe with a few dollars in their pocket buzzing around the night life they plan to get rid of anyway.
If foreigners want to live here then the government’s view is that can work, get on work permits, pay taxes of a minimum of 100-200K Baht a year, dress better, look better, drink less, and contribute something more to the economy by buying cars and condos.
People need to step out of the box and see the big picture if they want to understand why these things are happening and then they won’t be so shocked when it all comes to a halt.
I don’t fully agree with the way things are going, but I am willing to try and at least understand it, rather than live in denial that it is happening.
View all comments by Cheapolay
To the best of my memory, this is the first time I’ve ever agreed with Cheapolay, but I agree with him 100% on these two comments. Well said.
View all comments by werewolf
Nobody has explained why, when the number of gogo bars does diminish (which seems to be the only thing that people are referring to by “nightlife”), the Thai scene won’t be able to fill in the gaps.
Nobody is suggesting, I hope, that the Thai scene (ie. 95% of prostitution in Bangkok) is going anywhere.
All that’s going to happen is that we’re going to be deprived of the “opportunity” to pay a 700 baht barfine, followed by 2,000+ baht for an unenthusiastic short-time with a single mother from Issan, after a number of 140-150 baht miniature beers and 150-200 baht glasses of water disguised as tequila.
Sex (and booze) in the decent Thai venues is of course largely cheaper and better, with less stretch-marks - even in the “farang surcharge” establishments.
And yes, the freelancer scene is obviously going to explode when the gogos disappear.
Still not really seeing any problems here, apart from what to spend my budget surplus on.
View all comments by TAFKABBB